Remember to go and visit this link to see Sungri's new technology.

http://thefraserdoma...sungri-claims-5.html

This is especially good for the Phoenix market since all other PV technologies have major thermal degredation due to phoenix temperatures, including Galium Arsenide or cadmium thin films

This is a great market. I think the real niche here is for financial companies that underwrite the installation costs for consumers. The technology is in place but it's expensive for consumer use, so if you can offset the costs it's a no-brainer for most homeowners.

There are companies in the market now that provide what are essentially home equity loans and arrange for (through contractors) the installation. There are also companies that will install solar panels for free but they belong to the company and the homeowner basically gets paid rent for their rooftop. Do you have an idea about how you would fit in with and differentiate from the existing companies in this market?

Micco thanks for the reply, basically, we wouldn't be paying rent per say, but the customer would be making us a part of their utility, and with that, they would pay competitive rates for electricity while we using their rooftop. We will also have a system that the home owner would also be able to lease the equipment from us.

Much like the cable company that would lease its cable box for free, or the telephone company from times before deregulation which leased its telephone for free.

Installation of the panels will be cheaper than traditional methods, a scenario would consist of a customer calling to switch to our utility.
Initially, we would do a site survey using google, then we would augment that by visiting the customers premises. By the time we come out to install the panel, we should know how it will become installed, so a litecrane could lift it off the truck and onto the roof

I think it's a neat idea although I still think we need another 10 years befotre solar energy will really go rocketing skyhigh.
(My friends at Shell all tell me to wait)
Tommy

That's what I would expect for someone from the Shell Oil Company to say: wait as in "wait till we use all of our oil reserves" ;)

I don't think waiting is a good idea, i think the best move to make is the move now, look at Germany, they aren't waiting! Look at Japan, they aren't waiting either. Take a look at this link, for incentives in Arizona

http://www.dsireusa....&RE=1&EE=1

Good point Vancouverbluz, Shell wants to use their oil reserves, but these I speak are not the top managers. Shell invest also in solar power, ownes a lot of patents and my friends know what is still being developped at the moment.

I have seen ideas like this before on CH how are you going to use CambrianHouse to crowd source this?

Plus, have you seen the costs, they are very expensive to do stuff like this. If you really want to have a solar cell on your roof you can and also, the electric company will pay you for contributing extra power to the grid.

Nevertheless Vanhees, how many Chevy employees are going to say they love ford products? I don't expect many since that is their livelihoods. Oil companies are making record profits like never ever before. There was never a time like the present for them to make as much money as they are. Sometimes change and initative goes beyond pure profit motive. The greatest disruptions in history sometimes occured when profit wasn't anticipated. Why didn't shell invest in nano solar like Google did, why didn't shell invest in this company sungri.com? They want to invest in something marginal to make others get the impression that they are wanting to help, but they would not want to invest in something that would potentially supplant the status que, which is what they are a part of.

Kevin, well i know nothing of the utilities business, so there is lots to do here. I have seen the cost and the truth is, because of all the incentives that the feds and the state offers, with something innovative and novel, it is entirely possible to break into this market. Again, it takes more than what is occuring now with the incumbant utility to get people to take the initative to go solar. Phoenix is a perfect place for this to happen if anywhere.

it sounds like a noble idea but I have 2 issues with it:
#1 - What aspect of this would be crowdsourced?
#2 - how is money made and exactly what is the work to be done? The mesh distributed network thing sounds cool but it seems almost like promoting peer-to-peer wifi in that it's more of a hippie movement / self-sustaining pursuit than a business. i could be way off on this but I don't understand the business in its current description.

If it's more than just promoting the concept of selling energy back to the grid, can you clarify? Is this perhaps more appropriate for a traditional VC raise if it involves fronting capital to get a mesh network in place that will pay itself back over time?

sean

Scroll - #1 is a very good question, i wish it did/could lend itself to crowdsourcing.
#2 Scroll, that was a very good observation of the mesh being like peer to peer. Here though there is a centralized business model. Basically here is how one would look at it.
Imagine yourself a utility and you would want to set up a solar array much like the solar arrays in springerville Arizona or one of the many places they are going up this year. However, instead of setting it up in a far away place, you wanted to set it up in an urban environment right where the power consumers will be. So what you will do is to make a compromise with homeowners to set up elements in the array on their rooftops and give them power at the existing cost that they were paying now. Therefore they will have solar power and they are paying not much more than existing electrical rates to obtain it. If you see Sungri.com's website you'll see that they state that their product competes with the cost of producing electricity via coal.

Well, the Sunrgi site is a little light on technical details for my liking, but then I'm a scientist rather than a marketeer so I would say that. I do note though that they 'hope' to be able to produce the cells commercially in 12-15 months but that initially they'll only be available to governments and large corporations with residential installations following later. Given some of the claims that have been made within the industry in the past, I wouldn't want to invest TOO much money in any venture relying on this technology before you've seen it working in a commercially-viable installation!

I don't think installation will be QUITE as straightforward as you think. The weight of the panels isn't mentioned but you may have to think twice before just slapping them on a roof! Sunrgi will undoubtedly provide advice on this when they release the cells though, so in a way it's not your problem.

With regards to the 'mesh' scheme itself... I don't see how being a member of the mesh has any benefit over and above simply installing a solar panel and selling any excess power back to the grid...

Philip - excellent observation regarding Sunrgi, i tried to send them a few emails; however, i'm not sure why they wouldn't respond. It isn't absolutely necessary to use their technology; however, the power outputs of the installations in Phoenix will be about 30% less than in other environments.

Other than that, regarding your second comment. Consider this, in the us there are 2 ways to get cable services, through an actual coaxial cable company or through a satelite, both ways cost the same amount, the second way, they install a dish onto your home. This will be the solar energy version of that concept. If people feel that they should purchase it so they can sell it back to the company themselves, then so be it! We are interested in the far more majority market who'd rather not do that.

I don't see how this is similar to a satellite dish at all. My point is that I could go out and purchase EXACTLY THE SAME solar cells, have them installed by Sunrgi themselves, sell excess power back to the grid in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY and not pay you for the privilege.

Unless of course you're planning to somehow connect the homes in the area yourself without relying on the grid? Again, I don't see the point in this because it's a MAJOR extra expenditure and effort for pretty much the same end result.

Philip - It is similar to the satelite dish in the sense that it is a utiity. Weather its cable TV or electricity. They are both utilities!

Philip - fine go out and do it, go out and make the effort of purchasing your own equipment and selling it back to the grid, you wouldn't be the one who we are aiming our business towards. We are aiming at the far higher majority who wouldn't go through that effort. Besides, i don't know how it is like in your area, but the cost to sell back to the utility is lower here than the cost to be supplied the power. Again, our utility is independent of the incumbent utility and is 100% renewable when it counts. Like the satellite dish, the individual has to give up a small space on his roof for the privilage of having the service, same here. The advantage is that they are more renewable than the established utility which will probably charge them a higher rate for a special renewable contract, etc . To find out all of the specifics yourself on the incumbent utility and its offerings go to http://www.aps.com

The effort is well worth it when you consider 2 things
- implimenting an urban solar solution into a city that has the highest % of it in any major city in the northern hemisphere.
- individuals wouldn't have to go through the expense to go solar.

Highest % of sun than any other major city in the northern hemisphere.

Yes, the amount you get for selling power back to the grid is less than what you would pay for the same amount - of course it is, it's the only way for power companies to make money as you're still using their grid. I don't see how you can change that.

If you're going to tell me that you're just going to share power within your 'mesh' as needed, then again I think your idea is flawed. If every house has a solar panel, then every house will be generating power at the same time and there's nowhere for any excess to go. Conversely at night, nobody is generating so there isn't any power to share. The only way around this is some form of energy storage plant, which is getting into a whole new level of complexity.

I certainly applaud your efforts to make this work and the motivation behind it, and I certainly agree with your two points there, so please don't think I'm trying to detract from this idea in any way.

My impression is you fail to see the vision of how this will work, as much as i'm trying to explain to you, it just isn't happening!

I'll try again, but i have my doubts....

So 2 things define a utility. One is having customers (consumers) of a product, the second is having a product to consume. In satellite cable networks for instance, the individuals receiving the service are the constituents of a larger customer base. They aren't necessarily buying the equipment to use, instead they are paying for the privilage of using your network. In the 80s satellite service consisted of buying the equipment and receiving what the satellites are transmitting for free. Now it consists of renting the equipment or receiving the equipment for free and paying for the service. With increasingly cheap solar technology it is useful to have systems that could be rented.

Such a system will be a GRID WITHIN A GRID where the energy is shared within, which is justified because individuals are expected to go beyond their individual loads. Distributing the load over this grid makes since for a utility! Any net product can be sold outside of the grid for market electricity rates. Because this is a grid, there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO STORE ENERGY!!! Instead, being a utility a utility could compete for the lowest rates for night time use, also for symmetrical drain use like airconditioning for instance.

I make no further hope that you'll understand the extent of this concept, but we'll see.

"urban environment right where the power consumers will be"
But, just because consumers are there dose not make it the best place to put solar panels. You will most likely get less efficiency do the the placement.

"individuals wouldn't have to go through the expense to go solar."
But, the company would have to go through great expense. Plus, they will have to suffer the fact that they could have a much higher effecency and return if they build there own complex. Plus, the maintenance costs are huge. It all ready takes years before the system will ever pay for itself.

Kevin What??? You aren't even making any sense! Less efficiency? The sunrgi panels are efficient in a higher temperature environment of a desert area because of its higher environmental requirements, that is exactly why i pointed out the sunrgi technology. That is what makes their technology definatively suited for southern arizona desert environments. Otherwise traditional pv tech has a lower efficiency compared to other places where pv is being used. Did you know that Phoenix has the highest use of solar thermal hot water systems than any other place in the world? So we need a similar solution for solar electric for consumer home use.

There is an expense of installation, however such solar systems could pay for themselves in 4 years, but such systems could last for 25 years.

There is uncertainty over the installation costs and how they will be distributed, but this is not an impossibility. The maintainance costs even for a grid system of Sunrgi units will be cheaper than any other electric plant that you could imagine, coal,naturalgas,nuclear, take your pick! It is equal to a pv electric plant, but then again, IT IS A PV ELECTRIC PLANT!

"Plus, they will have to suffer the fact that they could have a much higher effecency and return if they build there own complex."
- this what you said makes absolutely no sense, do you even know what you are talking about? If you don't then just read and not contribute!

The important thing about Concentrated PV systems using a fresnel lens is that the lens will last much longer than the light sensor so the light sensor could be replaced in the system which will increase the longevity of concentrated pv systems beyond normal pv systems.

Phoenix has the highest efficiency in thermal solar, but a lower efficiency in pv solar but the sunrgi technology alleviates that by its cooling design.

Vancouverbluz I understand what you're trying to tell me. The following graph explains the problem I have with your analysis of the problem:

http://www.sciencedi...0?wchp=dGLbVzb-zSkzk

The data presented is the domestic energy use for households in Hong Kong on weekdays (a) and weekends (b). I've chosen this because the authors of the paper suggest that summer use is dominated by air conditioning, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the situation is comparable in Phoenix.

Solar power generation peaks at midday, when you'll notice the energy usage is lowest (because nobody is at home), and is next to useless in the late evening and overnight, when usage is at a maximum.

Without some form of energy storage, please tell me how you'll avoid the problem of your mini-grid having plenty of energy when nobody wants it and none when it's actually useful.

Here you just contradicted yourself, if it's dominated by air conditioning, then how could they not be home? I know when i leave home, the air conditioning is turned off or atleast used less. Don't loose sight of the fact that it represents an array of real electricity generation. Because of that we are able to negotiate the higher cost/watt during the day for lower cost during the night, so the homeowner would still be on top in regards to the amount of energy they use or not use.

Please look at the graph I posted. The highest energy use - ie the time when air conditioning is switched on - is in the evenings and overnight. No contradiction there.

I saw the graph, and you are right, daytime use for dual income working families tends to be shifted towards the late afternoon to night when families tend to be home; however, what about daytime use, those panels are still producing power, that power could be traded on the open market for night time power which is even cheaper, thus producing profit.

One important point, this array will be producing power throughout the sunlit day irregardless of whomever is consuming it. It would benefit the community anyway. The most expensive power is during the daytime, the cheapest power is at night. It would be useful and profitable for such a company to trade expensive power for cheaper power anyway. That is the essence of this companies profitability.

How can we help? Get investors to finance your idea about solar power. Please forgive me, if you already mentioned how we can help in your comments. I lived in Sierra Vista for 18 years, and know how hot Phoenix can get. With all that sun, your idea should be possible. In Sierra Vista, we used swap coolers, which I believe were more efficient than air conditioners.

"Kevin What??? You aren't even making any sense! Less efficiency?"
Any system you start spreading out will have less efficiency then a dedicated system in a single area. Most solar power plants use a lot of automated control systems that move the solar panels around to always be in the light or use use optics, such as mirrors or lenses, to focus sunlight onto the solar cells. Commercial solar panels are set up to have a high efficiency. They are not the same as just sticking one stationary solar cell on the roof. Plus, they will have to pay for a controller box for every home owner. It costs them a lot less to have them in a single area with more efficiency.

"The maintainance costs even for a grid system of Sunrgi units will be cheaper than any other electric plant that you could imagine, coal,naturalgas,nuclear, take your pick!"
All of those other systems output way more power in comparison. So, for the amount of power you are getting its costly compared to them all.

"There is an expense of installation, however such solar systems could pay for themselves in 4 years, but such systems could last for 25 years."
If home owners don't want to buy it because it costs to much. Why would a company want to take on that cost and then some to connect them! Especially when they can build there own specialized system that is more efficient.

• Solar energy benefits everyone who uses the electricity grid in Arizona â€" not just the owner of the solar system. Solar energy provides value because it produces energy during bright daylight hours, when demand for electricity is at its highest. As a result, it prevents the need to build peaking power plants that burn natural gas, which is growing more expensive and is vulnerable to price spikes. Solar energy, when installed near where the electricity will be used, also reduces the need for electricity transmission and distribution infrastructure, saving all electricity customers money.

• In recognition of these benefits, the Arizona Legislature and the Arizona Corporation
Commission have created incentives to increase Arizona’s use of solar energy. Policies ranging from tax exemptions to rebates have reduced the up-front costs of solar systems and helped make solar PV a cost effective option for homeowners.

Arizona could do much more to accelerate the progress of its solar energy market.
• Arizona has the best potential for solar PV energy of any state in the U.S. The U.S. Department of Energy estimates that sunlight captured on less than one quarter of one percent of Arizona’s land (an area roughly the size of Lake Powell) could generate all of the state’s current electricity needs.

• Arizona is currently using just a fraction of that potential. Current incentives have resulted in the installation of 13 megawatts (MW) of solar power.

Kevin, basically, this is a virtualization of a traditional grid. This is automatically more efficient than an array that exists 200 miles away since that such grid has a loss/mile. Even the new array that will be completed in 2011 which is being built in gila bend will have a distance from phoenix of 70mi. Here there is no stepping or voltage conversions, it just represents a virtual array that has the same efficiency as a regular homeowners installation. Look at california, in california the state sets the highest priority on customer installations. There are many federal and state incentives by the arizona corporation commission in the development of solar utilities. The sungri units are highly concentrated and are better suited for optical alignment because of its pv sliver being smaller and more concentrated. Haven't you read their information? http://www.sunrgi.com. The efficiency of pv systems are in the design of the individual elements that make up the system. Other than that, there is absolutely no difference in the efficiency of a array of pv systems in a grid or in a plant configuration. A good analogy would be cloud computing vs dedicated computing. Both having the same elements except spaced differently. Where do you base your beliefs from? Have you even read about pv systems in actual use?

headofideas - well i did put in a grant with the steppfoundation.org. I currently live in Phoenix, but i've lived in Tucson.

Ohh, by the way, the controller boxes that you are talking about cost less for a lower ampage unit. ALLOT less, look at a magazine called (solar today) they will show the prices of those units, i'm sure a utility scale effort would make such a purchase even cheaper.

I went to Tucson quite a bit. I hope your grant is granted. I think steppfoundation could be beneficial for Taffman.

Head - the step foundation grant submission form requires the individual to determine from their project how much CO2 was displaced. It is very beneficial, i just hope that i followed the instructions on the submission.

I love the idea. (I didn't read all the comments, but) is this peer-to-peer solar energy? Do all solar panels accrue to provide the energy load required?

Irx - It is peer to peer and yes, in a given area there is a critical mass of houses that will accrue enough energy for any one house at any one time.

The idea of Municipal Solar Utilities (MSU) were started in California by the City of Santa Clara in the 1970s for rooftop solar water heating. Santa Clara used a leasing model. Under a CA Energy Commission (CEC) program, the MSU concept was expanded to over 25 CA communities during the late 70's and early 80's. The current power purchase agreement model was developed back then along with a host of educational, regulatory and financial incentives that promoted solar water heating to the public. It was a rare commercialization success until the tax credits disappeared in the mid 1980s. There is still some information at the CEC on MSUs for those wanting to pursue the idea. The MSU concepts and tools developed back in the 70s and 80s are applicable to today's progressive cities to promote both rooftop solar thermal and PV.

XEsolar, that is exactly what i'm looking for! Yes, california is very progressive in its alternative energy implimentations. Even utilities don't make their money off of consumption. I would model it after what California is doing.

Vancouverbluz,

Model on what CA did for MSUs....CA is not pursing a municipal model any longer and I don't believe that Santa Clara is in the leasing business either. Instead, CA like most states work on a private supply model. To get a quick overview of what CA is doing, including many of it municipal utilities, see http://www.californi...org/incentives.html.

"This is automatically more efficient than an array that exists 200 miles away since that such grid has a loss/mile."
But, that is only a very slight loss. Its like comparing the efficiency of a new Garden Hose vs Fire Hose with a small little leak. The robust water pushing efficiency of the fire hose pushing power makes up for the little leak and then some.

"no difference in the efficiency of a array of pv systems in a grid or in a plant configuration"
There is quite a big difference. As said before most solar power plants use a lot of automated control systems that move the solar panels around to always be in the light.

Also, they use large optics, such as mirrors or lenses, to focus sunlight onto the solar cells.
Notice the giant mirrors that focus the light on the solar receivers or tower.
http://greenwombat.f.../2008/01/schott.jpeg
http://whatsnextnetw...a/Stirling_Solar.jpg
http://www.daylife.c.../photo/0d0p6Sbgz73kg

Commercial solar panels have automated tracking to always be in the light. They are not the same as just sticking one stationary solar cell on the roof. Also, not every roof even has the correct angle for solar panels.

The angle of inclination is necessary to take advantage of the sun's energy. This angle changes regularly during the seasons and time of day.

No all geographical areas are the same, a lot of meteorological data is taken into account to insure good placement of solar plants.

Also, maintenance costs on all of these spread out systems. Is going to be huge in comparison to having them all in one location.

Also, home owners could do this all ready and buy there own system. Most power company's all ready pay for people contributing to the grid (usually less then what you buy it for but still). So, if they really wanted to they could, but they don't because it still costs to much of an investment before homeowners see a return.

See keven, what you wrote shows your total lack of knowledge in the subject. I really don't want to denegrate you but it seems that you are so content to prove that you are right that you would grasp at any thought in your mind that seems acceptable.

PV systems aren't using "mirrors or lenses" to focus sunlight. PV systems have a much broader use of the light spectrum. You are confusing pv systems with thermal solar systems.

I don't mind sitting here and attacking your heavily flawed argument.
Roof mounted solar panels could have just as much automated tracking as any commercial unit.

You furthermore made the incorrect assumption that roof mounted systems could not have automated tracking like commercial plant systems.

Your mentioning angle of inclination is basically elementary stuff concerning solar installations and satelite dish installs which consists of changing elevation and azimuth positions for tracking objects and bodies in the sky. Nothing new here and nothing excclusive to a commercial power station. Even amateur astronomical telescopes have these automated precision guides.

This only goes to show how much you are reaching! The maintenance costs will obviously be more than the costs of a PV plant system; however, you have not addressed the fact that the maintenance costs will be allot cheaper than other things like rooftop aircondiitoning, water heater systems, etc. Infact the maintenance costs are congruent to other services like home electricity and home based cable/telephone. satellite tv service and such. So your argument about the maintenance costs being astronomical has no basis in fact.

You talking about meteorological data is a big joke! Most of the PV systems that are online now or are coming online in 2 years are based in Arizona. Here check this website and educate yourself. http://www.greenwatt...ages/solaroutput.asp

How is that for meteorological data?

The consumer pv system programs have existed in Arizona for 6 years, and the rate of acceptance of such systems have not been great. One of the reasons for that is the fact that pv systems in the phoenix area operate at higher temperatures thus have lower efficiency. The sunrgi tech will change all of that! I would like to change all of that by developing a program that is hands off to the consumer. One that will benefit the consumer using all of the energy tax credits, both state,federal and international. California is a great example of a place that has succeeded in developing such a program, i want to develop the same program here in Arizona.

XEsolar - basically, this idea wouldn't work in california for example because it is california which has developed the very generous energy policy in regards to homeowners. Unfortunately Arizona doesn't yet have that and not in the near future is it anticipated in obtaining that. That is why the solar array would benefit places like Phoenix because of how it is set up to take advantage of energy credits and incentives for both the homeowner as well as the utility and it will do it in a way that will enable efficiency through economies of scale.