Ideas

How will you "catch"the water?
Tommy

Can you do a quick economic scaling on what it costs per hour or per mile to operate a large ocean-going ship and ballpark what the price on the water would have to be to remain in the black?

Vanhees: That is the part I cant divulge too much on "patent pending" and all that... but basically you would sail to areas of rain (not necessarily storms) and just cruise with the rainclouds...Catchin the rain on a catchment device on top of ship..

Micco: Havent researched enough to see what insurance and all the extras are but from looking at other fleet company annual reports it seems the cost of daily operations for a tanker can range from 5-9k a day... With bottled water selling for approx $1 in the rich nations, I believe we can get anywhere from 20-60 cents of that dollar - depending on distribution...

Quick math: If we can get 2 million gallons in quick fashion (I believe my catchment idea can do that with 2 days of rain catching and half an inch of rain an hour)... 2million gallons is over 7mil liters...break that down 50% after water treatment and other uses.. 3.5mil liters...Then take that and put into 500ml bottles for individual consumption and you are back to 7million bottles at 20cent is 1.4million US per ship load...

1.4 mil US per ship load
- ship cost per month 150-270k US
- not sure of other costs for distribution/bottling/shipping/coordination/etc..

ship loads per month 2-3 if I can get ships stationed near heavy rain areas...I also figure the cost of additional ships will not increase the other costs too much, just another another per month charge for ship operations...not until we open a 2nd distribution/market center..

Jim

Sounds like you've done your homework on the infrastructure. If your catchment plan allows you to gather that much water and will endure real ocean deployment, this sounds like a winner.

Thank you... kind words are great...Kind words and votes even better ;-)

I think the costs associated with this project are unreasonably high. Leasing ships, fueling ships, outfitting ships with your rain catching apparatus, hiring crew, tracking and risking bad weather, treating and cleaning water, marketing water, distributing water.

I think you are adding an additional step to the bottled water market that is expensive and unnecessary. There are large companies doing this same thing currently without the cost of rain gathering. Aquafina bottles tap water!

Would it be worth considering doing the same thing on land? You would have an edge this way by not having to pay for the water.

if you're sure it works... why don't you... do it?

Thestarwheel: Actually its not just a bottled water company...That is what I would go for now to cover costs...We really want to deliver bulk-water as well...Another thing is, now, you are pretty accurate in your assessment..The problem is a few years down the road, you will probably notice a few of those bottled water companies disappearing..Cuz they no longer have a product to bottle...So I guess you can say this will be more viable in the near future but the question is how long to wait..And yes the costs will be high in the near term..

Oh and remember: Evian is shipped from France around the world...So shipping costs are already part of some of the products you buy for $1 or so..

cristimanole: Actually I am hoping to...I am still doing reasearch..Cuz like "thestarwheel" stated, it will be expensive and I am hopin to get either assistance or advice...Plus negative comments welcome..If I can get pass them all hear I feel better talking to possible investors..

Jim

I think we have a greater chance of running out of oil and gasoline products for your ships before we risk running out of water.

I love this idea. The only clarity needed is on the "water catch" side. Infrastructure issues can be worked out. I dont think they are big enough to stop. Go ahead and let us know where we can chip in. (for your info - my rating is 5 *s )

Thank you Firefox, I have designed out a means for that but need to get some funding to get a maritime design firm to really validate it...So after I finish fleshing this out, I will go to investors for the initial funding..

Thank you too "thestarwheel": I agree not the easiest to see as profitiable now but half the idea is to build this for the future..Once water becomes more scarce or expensive, this idea will have more merit and if I have a fleet out there already, I am the market leader vice any other company that needs to build a fleet to compete..In fact competition will be acceptable as water is one of those resources that is needed and will be needed everywhere..

Regarding the run out of oil before water, true..We will not run out of water but there will be and are regions of the world already that water is scarce..Desalinization can handle the richer nations but not the rest of the world...Pulling a ship with a few million gallons of near clean water (still needs filtering) to a pier and having the cost subsidized by charities would provide quicker and less costly relief than designing/building/running a desalt plant in any particular nation that can not afford one. At least at today and the near future's cost.

Also I have a few ideas on covering the ship fuel needs that as we get closer to your statement's truth, would become practical...

I envision near term relief in parts of the world, where I am not servicing as a bottler/full-pay bulk-water delivery; that aid organizations build the infrastructure to offload the water to storage facilities for the local water treatment facility to clean and distribute. We could get paid full rate by the charities/aid orgs or take it a loss as a charity deal..Most parts of the world use vastly less water per person than the US/Europe and Japan, so a few million gallons will go further in developing nations than in the US...

As a bottler we would compete amongst many and might be able to use the "help the world" idea to make our product stand out, like the Ethos water from Starbucks.. As a bulk-water delivery company, its not going to save the world or handle all the water needs of all, but it could provide relief to a region that is desparate for some water..The great thing is we are mobile and bulk-water can provide water to farming, industry, user consumption as long as a ship can get to the area. It will not solve inland issues unless they have a means to transport the water.. But maybe that will be a future endeavor...

Thank you all for your comments, please keep them coming...As for assistance, unless you are a lawyer (patent, maritime, beverage) or into weather or shipping or water or anything else you can think of that might assist, stay tuned...I will see what I can come up with..

Jim

WOW!

In how many years do you see this idea being viable as a business?

As far as needing water from a new source is concerned?

In some ways, you are going to run into the same problem as solar power. It really is a surface area game. However I believe you would be using multiple times the surface area, to generate water.

How will you deal with this?

Where water is required, is areas where there is a great population. In these areas, surface area (ie real estate) will be expensive. If you have to ship the water out where real estate is cheaper you will deal with energy cost to transport.

With energy costs increasing, will the market bear the cost of your water?

I think that parts of the world could really use additional cheap, reliable source of fresh water - and those parts range from undeveloped countries, remote areas, as well as large metropolises like Los Angeles, California - which must pipe fresh water from hundreds of miles away from snow melt in the Sierra mountains. With global warming, such sources of fresh water are actually in danger (less snow means less fresh water). So I don't think the need is that far into the future. The only issue is really how to make it economical enough for the market.

I think the there are some alternative ideas for reducing costs down that could be considered, including using stationary "farms" at sea that rely on solar power to distill fresh water from salt water (use the sun to evaporate water, condense the vapor against a cooler surface) - when the sun is not out and it's raining, you can collect the rainfall. In this way, you don't have to have the expense of ships and a "farm" could be automated to a point that you need very few people to keep it running, and it could be very "green" - unlike ships that consume fossil fuels and generate pollution. Having a floating farm means that you can have very very large coverage - think square miles. In addition, these floating farms can do other income generating activities - from generating electricity (via wind and waves) to farming fish. The fresh water harvested could be piped in, rather than shipped in, further reducing costs long term. If your idea is viable, you might even be able to get government funding for building out some of the infrastructure and technology needed.

Of course, I understand that what I am suggesting is a much more ambitious scale - but the impact on the world would likewise be much larger if you could make it work.

Just wanted to throw in a comment regarding thestarwheel assertion that we'll run out of oil before we run out of water.

In the strict sense, we'll never run out of water but clean drinking water is a scarce commodity in many places. Even in the US, drinking water is heavily subsidized (how else can you explain bright green lawns in the Arizona desert) and there are movements afoot to remove those subsidies and make water the commodity it should be. In many places in the developing world, clean drinking water is THE main barrier to improving public health.

I've seen news stories about companies that make enormous tow-able bladders for moving water through the ocean. This allows you to use smaller tugboats rather than huge tankers and may dramatically reduce your overhead on "deadhead" runs. Have you looked at those options relative to the cost of using tankers?

thestarwheel: I think the major costs are the ships..Getting used tankers will require cleaning and of course since the idea is to go into heavier weather we cant get a rust bucket. So the costs of these vessels will range from 5-30 mil US each..We are looking at the single hulled tankers that are getting phased out by 2010 as oil carriers...They will need to be converted to do other jobs or wasted, so we might be able to pick some of them up cheaper as well...After that it will be new ships and that is what competitors will need to do.

As for viable. I think that will not be long term. Most big bottlers (bb for brevity) have multi-million dollar treatment/bottling facilities. I am talking about setting up small little 2-10 people facilities. Most bb ship around the world. We are talking about regional set ups, so water harvested near Africa's east coast will be delivered around the Indian Ocean or maybe Europe as farthest. Evian ships from France to Japan, cargo ship daily lease rates go from $8-20k US a day, and the trip takes a few weeks..Most bb distribute and market globally, even small distant markets. We will concentrate on the cities we have a warehouse in, so we will not try to compete globally. For example, we envision Tokyo as the first market city (cuz I live here) and we will try to set up a distribution system only in the Kanto (Tokyo region) plus a web presence..If people want our water but do not live in a serviced area, they will have to pay for shipping. So while we will be global in name, the product will be fairly local. Tokyo will not see water from off the coast of Mexico or even the Indian Ocean, unless we find a large quality difference in regions that we can some how market (like vine vintages).

For the floating water farms, nice...The only problems I see with that is you still have to worry bout navigation. Something that big will not stay stationary for long and during typhoons and such will probably sink. The more seaworthy you make it the more the cost. Also water is heavier than oil (bout 25% more) so you need to make the structure sound enough to hold that much weight and having it piped will require it closer to land and that will require constantly running (maybe low speed) engines to keep the entity tethered in place so the piping doesnt foul...Having these things way out at sea would require tankers to come and get the water...Having tugs pull it around would mean that it cant be that huge or you will have massive tugs.

Ships are navigible more than a farm and are not stationary. I can follow the rain. The 'farm' is practically stationary so you are still encountering the same issue as a land-based 'farm', and that is you need the rain to come to you. A tanker, especially a 2-10mil gallon sized one is much more mobile. You can skirt heavy seas, move with the rain and deliver to numerous locations. With a stationary system, you can not skirt heavy seas, move with the rain or deliver to numerous places (unless you get tankers)...

Thanks keep the comments coming...
JIm

THIS A HUGE PROJECT (ACQUIRING THOSE SHIPS ALONE) PLUS PACKAGING THE BOTTLED WATER..FRM MY SIMPLE ARITHMETIC THE BREAK EVEN COST PER LITER WOULD BE TWICE THE COST OF GASOLINE!

I appreciate the thought you've put into this hro_jim. You seem to know your stuff. This still seems to me to be a interesting concept and perhaps a last ditch effort to supply the world with water once our current water sources are no longer options but I can't see anyone making money on this.

Mi_Amore...Could you share the math? I might not be seeing what you and thestarwheel are seeing... Yes the company will be in debt for a long time per ship...

You both could be right...I dont have all the figures for the math yet..So if anyone cares to share guestimates on any of these I would really appreciate it..

Like:
- bottling operation costs (would help to know the size of the bottling operation as well)
- Shipping insurance
- beverage insurance
- warehouse and sales distribution for a home/office water cooler delivery system

These are the things I am still trying to get info on...Putting together letters to talk to people in each of these industries and will hopefully have some good feedback.. Then I might have to agree with the two of ya, but aint givin up yet!

Jim

I'll make it simpler based on experienced, i used to run a bottled/water refiling system: the cost of water is only about $.015 while its plastic bottling is $.06! plus over head and operational cost our SRP for 250ml is $.104...go figure this=(

I dont have the "shipment cost" and the techonology your bringing to a "simple rainwater"..if its 300times less than the tap water being treated in at least 18stages tomake it purified and in good packaging..i guess you will get your ROI at least 20 yrs frm now...provided the market bite it from day to 2Oth year in at least 3 continents.

Hi hro_jim.

I share your interest to both help populations in need and also try to make it go around with sound economics.

Here's how I see it;

To evaporate 1kg of water, you need ~150.000 joule. This is quite a huge value.

But if we could atleast partly break through current power-source limitations, the desalination-systems should come into it's own.

This is what I envision for compensating water-shortages in the medium-term (10-30 years ahead). Huge power-plants at the coasts producing water just as they refine petrol today.

The advantages of such operations are;
---------
- No worry about bad weather out on sea as it's landbased

- Enables countries in need and those helping them to secure a critical minimum delivery of water as people can't live without water for more than a day or three

- Since water is a first priority, the costs of fossil fuels etc. will rate second in importance

- Mobile water-treatment plants can be constructed on boats and cover regional areas under a UN system

- Access to raw-material is constant (seawater) compared to collecting rainwater which must be a chance-game similar to trawling for fish

- Enhancements in power-source efficiencies is well within physical realities, nuclear, fusion, hydrogen etc. and are under heavy research over the world

So my focus on water shortages would be to look at new or novel ways to harness power. If you have access to power, you can do anything.

In addition there are some interesting side-effects to drilling for oil on the east-coast of Africa.
What some Norwegian engineers discovered was that when they drilled down to 2500 meters in a Tanzania region, instead of finding oil, huge pressures of freshwater came out of the pipes.

It seems there were an enormous sand-and-gravel system deep down that filtered seawater and constantly replenishing reservoairs. Such similar geological features are known to exist many places in the world.

I think we will hear more about both these solutions in the future.

All the best
Torgrot

-Mobile water-treatment plants can be constructed on boats and cover regional areas under a UN system-

hmmm...why do i day dream that this would be the last corporation standing above Earth when Mad Max scenario becomes a reality =)

" I can follow the rain. The 'farm' is practically stationary so you are still encountering the same issue as a land-based 'farm', and that is you need the rain to come to you. A tanker, especially a 2-10mil gallon sized one is much more mobile. You can skirt heavy seas, move with the rain and deliver to numerous locations. With a stationary system, you can not skirt heavy seas, move with the rain or deliver to numerous places (unless you get tankers)..."

A tanker/ship with max load ave capacity ranging from 1,000DWT to 20,000DWT means you be needing at least 100ships/tanker in your operation?!

Whoa..sounds a real engineering questions and multi $billions project. Good gracious but i need more coffee to imagine this monumental idea!

Saigon: You state from your experience bottling the water will cost approx 10 cents...And I found the following quote:

http://www.waterindu.../bottled-water-2.htm
However, Warren Olvera, director of retail sales at Culligan, disagreed. "Reverse osmosis is expensive to set up, but once you get the equipment, ongoing costs are pretty nominal. It depends on how much you produce, but costs for reverse osmosis can be as little as 10 cents per case."

So that would sound like total cost per bottle is approx 11 cent. If we do water cooler sized bottles, I believe the cost will be even less.

Thank you for the numbers. Remember if I can do bulk-water deliveries, we can cut out the distribution channel and bottling cost, just go pier side or connect to a water barge at a customer site and drop off the water...So as the fleet gets larger we can continue to supply bottled water at a fairly contstant rate, but more ships would be dedicated to bulk-water delivery.

thestarwheel: I dont think I answered your question bout viability of this with regards to water prices. For bulk water, its just not viable now with the low cost. As weather patterns change (ie problems in Australia and China), the near term cost will rise..Again the benefit of being mobile like this is as a situation alleviates, we can ship to other areas that have the need...So we are not stuck providing a solution to an area that no longer needs it..We could even, if I have 25 ships in the Indian Ocean and the need isnt there (fat chance but for the sake of argument)..It would be easy to send a few of the ships to another part of the world to work those areas that are in need.

Yes this will take time to make money, I would hope to break even with operating costs and servicing asset loans in the near term. From talkin to all of yall I am thinking, this might be best to try as a charity type thing that hopes to be self-sustaining.

Jim

I could see this being used in emergencies to quickly bring potable water to the scene of a disaster. Rainwater does not have to be treated if it is stored in clean dark containers that stop the growth of algae.

I see it being a humanitarian effort rather than a money making idea.

At the real cost of bringing this idea on line, the same money could be used for de-salinization plants.

Douglas_Perry: You are probably right from a straight start up cost, but you need to consider the follow on costs and the cost of energy..I think Turgot stated it best ".. If you have access to power, you can do anything." So you need to have a large energy source and at least in the developing world that might be difficult. The rich nations could afford desalts so bulk-deliveries there would probably be fewer, mostly to cover peek times where it surpasses the built desalt/current treatment levels...So for the rich nations this might be more a matter of deliverying bottled water but for those nations that cant afford desalt plants everywhere, this might be an easier solution.
jim

I admire your creativity and desire to help the less fortunate and I think it's a really original idea, but is it really feasible?

I'm totally unconvinced that this is economically viable.

Honestly, 11 cents per bottle of water generated in this fashion? I'd be suprised if you could do it for 11 dollars per bottle.

This is my favorite idea of the 101 from this week. It is fun to think about, but I too feel it may be impractical. That said - interesting ideas can evolve from other ideas.

I think the 11cents mentioned by saigon is for 250ml bottled water on his region without yet the overhead cost but and or profit margin added. I dunno how much in your end..is $3 for 5gals saleable?

Thank you all. For those that think this might be impractical...What do you believe the worst part is? Debtkill you are correct the 11cent was for the cost of bottling the water, using Saigon's stats and some of the other info I got off the Internet..

I think the largest expense for this would be the harvester ships, since I do not believe I can lease them..The cost of shipping product and daily operations of the harvester ships I think is on par with what Evian will pay to ship product to Japan (maybe even less since they pay the street cost of leasing a ship from 3rd party). I think the distribution channel and other associated costs with bringing this product to market is comparable also to the big vendors (since I will concentrate on target markets and they spread across many markets)..

The only piece that I so far envision hurting my cause would be the purchase of the ships. And without knowing all the ins-outs of it, I would say it would depend on the monthly loan costs as to whether this is a killer or acceptable.

Does anyone else see another big ticket item that might hurt this idea's chances? If its only the ships, there might be ways to finance them that it doesnt kill the idea (grants from aid agencies, long term loans, IPO and use profit to purchase ships, govt grants/loans, etc...)

Thank you again..
Jim

"shipborne rain catchment systems"... I understand you may have a patentable approach to this, but could you give an idea how much rain you're hoping to collect? I'm actually having a hard time getting my head around this... it seems hard to believe it could turn a profit. But the idea of "following the rain" seems like it would take a lot of energy, maybe less-or-more so depending on the volume of rain you can catch from a good storm. Are we talking something way-way beyond the volume of rain which would just fall on the ship itself?

Because the idea of a trailing bladder, while difficult to navigate with, might offer up much more surface area for capturing precipitation.

And here's a vaguely related concept... towing icebergs:
http://www.time.com/...,9171,915637,00.html
http://www.timesonli...uk/article719902.ece

This seems very ambitius. Is there better ways to use the opportunity costs by finding more efficient ways to remove the salt from the ocean water?

Ok, here i think is a more efficient approach to the problem...
http://www.blog.thes...ater-to-fresh-water/

They can float on water and are cheap. Not sure how you could harvest massive quantities efficiently, but seems to match the needs of the 3rd world. Easier for a country/city/village to maintain devices like this then buy water from a 3rd party.

As far as profit from bottled water (the non-3rd-world-country market)... I think there ARE cheap sources of water, and it will be a long time before you can compete with them. Because you're talking about collecting on a ship, you're already discounting localized production (you're competing with other ships transporting water from other locations, not cheap ways of finding water RIGHT NEXT to a city).

Sometimes bottled water is just repackaged tap water...
http://economist.com...038;story_id=9569968
...(gov subsidized at that)... so you're sort of trying to solve 2 distinct problems...

Problem #1 - Some poor countries have no water. But we'd need to make them self sufficient, rather then sell them water because they can't afford water. And it should always be cheaper to find water as locally as possible.

Problem #2 - Rich people will spend crazy $ on bottled water. But selling them rain water is far more expensive then selling them tap water. All you need is clever marketing to make a buck there, not clean water.

what if the water you are collecting is tainted with pollution?

This is an overly complex idea for a simple problem that is all ready solvable with current cost effective technology.

It is almost like one of those free power ideas. They make there idea to complex. try to ignore the realm of reality and physics.

Thank you all, you have definitely helped me think more about this. I believe as many have stated that this is not something that will be viable in the near term as a soley for-profit enterprise..I do believe this might be viable as a near term humanitarian venture with the goal of becoming self-sustaining.

DividedEye: There are ways to produce water as Gordon mentions but many of them are probably not practical for large populations..Of course Desalt plants would be great but require large amounts of energy and are still costly..So the poorer nations or even less wealthy regions in the rich part of the world might not have the money to fund these.

Gordon: To be as vague as possible and still give you an answer: Consider the catchment device as a deployable surface covering and extending beyond the weather deck of the tanker. From my rudimentary calculations I believe I can gain over 150,000 sq feet of catchment surface and at 1000sq feet getting 600 gallons for 1 inch of rain, that could produce near 90,000 gallons for 1 inch of rain. The trick would be to find a rain event that can produce at least 12 inches of rain in a 24hr period..That would produce over 1million gallons a day, cruise for 2-3 days and then head back to shore.

ccozad: The trick is to keep the catchment area as high above the waterline while not endangering the stability of the ship. I think I have an answer to that, but will need to pay for a maritime engineer to provide factual data on my design. Also my idea would be to allow the first inch of rain (depending on time frame) to pass thru some drainage devices to 1) clean the catchment surface 2) clean the air of pollutants.
I have read that rain water is very clean after the initial downpour since most of the air pollutants are captured in the initial rainfall and go to surface..Thats why the air looks so clean after a good rain...Most home rain catchment devices now have the ability to bypass the initial rain fall to clean the catchment surface and clean the air.. Of course the closer you are to heavy pollution zones (ie big cities) the longer that timeframe would be required.. The Tropics are a zone that has less heavy industry/cars and heavier rains..

It would also be the zone where many of my developing world bottling facilities would be located in, so my goal would be a day to cruise on site, 2-3 days to collect and 1 day or 2 back to facility. Then I can increase the number of loads to 1 per week where I am making more money..If I have a few facilities within a day of steaming, I can hit mulitple sites and still maintain this ratio... An example: near the Phillipines, there are probably many locations I can site a facility in this country and others..If I had a few ships dodging in and out of the rain events and someone to coordinate between the ships and facilities, it is conceivable that I could keep each site filled with water with limited down time of the ships..A tanker moving 10 knots (roughly 12miles an hour) can cover 250 miles in 1 day...That is a nice distance outside of the coastal pollutant zones..

And with rain events (not always storms) covering large areas (ie hundreds of square miles with some even thousands), there is a good chance that I can cruise toward a heavy rain area and catch rain hours from it...So use the light rain areas to clean my surface and then start catching rain on the way to the heavy rain area..

Also the nice thing about the ocean and large rain storms/clouds/events, I can have many ships harvesting from a single source...I will need to make sure we work out a procedure to ensure no one gets too close to each other, and I have been thinking of how to do that..

The problem with a land based solution (for rain catchment) is you are limited to how long and when you can get rain by the rainfall in the area. For large semi-stationary/unseaworthy catchment craft, you also are limited by rainfall in the area you have the craft and have to deal with risks from large vicious storms.. As for tankers, yes slow and not as navigible as many smaller craft but they can skirt a storm easier and can move to other regions if the rainfall in that area is not sufficient.

Kevin_Cox: Yes complex but solvable by current cost effective technology? Maybe, but why are millions dying from unclean water diseases every year or billions do not have clean or enough water. I think the answer is the will to solve these problems by those that have the means is not there.. So nuts like me have a chance and can probably get funding on the off-chance I make a profit. Capitalism, not perfect but....

Something to think about: I am not sure this idea should be thought of as a single solution compared to other current solutions. As most of those solutions are static and do not move with the need. A desalt plant built in Perth Australia (approx 40-100mil - cant remember) is built for Perth. Not for the town 100miles away up the coast. The will to build the pipe infrastructure to provide that water is not there, nor may that town be big enough to justify its own desalt plant..Now I have a prospective customer...A small town that can build a storage facility and probably alreay has a small water treatment facility can receive a few million gallons of water every few weeks...It will take time before this is more expensive than the desalt plants. Plus I dont think you can upgrade a desalt plant very easily..So if your area starts outgrowing the current output, you probably want to make sure you really have a need before you invest a sizable amount in a new plant or upgrades..Thus another possible customer for a short time.

I believe there will always be customers, just not located in the same spot...Thus a mobile solution is acceptable..Like those that detail your car in your workplace parking lot..They go to the customer...this solution offers that potential...As a static solution for one particular city or region, those that do not believe this is effective are correct...But those that have tons of water in aquifers today might not have the rain to replenish them tomorrow or over use them..Drought victims (Sydney Australia right now) might want this type of solution and might be willing to pay above current bulk-rates to get it..Especially if a temporary solution. This is the same mentality that corporations use that states paying a contractor or outsource payrate is better than hiring the needed person because the need might not be there long term.

This company, as a bulk-water deliverer will need to be billed as that stopgap measure..To hold a city/region over until the next rainy season or until the political will to spend millions on a desalt plant or piping infrastructure is found. The political will to pay a higher rate for water now could be found more easily than the will to pay for a desalt plant. At least for a short period of time...That seems to be human nature..Am I wrong?

Thanks everyone, through trying to rebutt arguments, you are giving me more ideas on how to do things...I hope I am holding my own still...Keep them coming..

Jim
"Which ideas make you money?
Only the ones you know about!"

whew!

..am beginning to beleive on Dr.Kevin's "parody" about MADMX scenario =)

there are really issues thebaffled me here:

-purchase/rental of ships...initialy how many are we talking here to catch the ideal 2 inch of rain?

-how much is the probable break'even point for a bottle water?... your analogy seems misleading if you mean the mortality market will be your clients (those are likely from the poorest of poor). They are likely living in les than dollar per day...and its a spit on their grave if you sell $2/bottle for their daily consumption of drinking water alone.

-pollutant doesnt hover in nearby industrial city!? Mt. Pnatubo's ashes and Chernobyl cross continents and the meltdown even contaminated the cow's milk way back.(not to mention acid rain.)

-"follow the rain" though doable is really the huge task next to the purchase(s) of ships...you be needing at least (since your not divulging your ways and means:
*Instrumented Surface Buoy
*Capacitive filling bucket gauges
*Optical rain gauges
*Subsurface acoustic
*Surface radar

- the viability is a multibillion quetion at this stage. I cant comment any further.

Nevertheless i admire you JIM.

Let me quote an old provreb:
"Las cosas claras y el chocolate espeso."
(Ideas should be clear and chocolate thick)

Literate_Saint: Lets see if I can answer:

1) Ships: We can start with one, of course more is better and there isnt a way to really bring about a large enterprise without more ships...One ship can set up a certain area...And reluctantly we have to purchase them...

2) Actually the bottled water market is aimed to the rich nations, with bottling done in the developing world...40% of the shipload will go to the local bottler community for their use as they wish at discount rate..The comment bout if they raise their standard of living to a higher point, then they might be customers for the bottled water..(ie those that work at the bottler will get paid a rate fair for the average worker in that country -if avg is $5 a day then $5 a day I guess - will ask for NGO opinions as well)..Also bottled water cost changes per region, in Chengdu, China I paid 5 Yuan for a 2 Liter bottle which is less than $1 US...

3) Pinatubo and Chernobyl? They didnt cover the earth but covered a particular band of the atmosphere. And they affect ground water the same way as rain..So filtering and cleaning will get rid of them if possible..If not, dump the load, clean the holds and move on. Acid rain, not sure that is a big issue anymore, could be wrong..

4) not sure I follow all the needs there, of course I might find out more what your saying..I was planning on using maritime weather reports - you can get services, and once I have funding I can check the actual service offerings..So no surface buoys..the others? why subsurface? regular navigation radar/sonar is needed, we are not going to be near shore collecting, too dangerous..open sea....as for the tanker hold gauges, they already have them since you dont wanna pump more oil in a tank hold than possible...

Yup not very clear is it...too many variations to the plan..Problem is its a whole new paradigm..This is more in line with the sustainable development programs...the question is, is it a valid paradigm? That is what I need to figure out or ride it and see what happens...With some enthusiasm and reluctance I am thinking we will have to help develop the economies around the bottling facilities (if I pick a rural area) with the help of the locals, NGOs and other agencies..

Thank you for the comments..

Jim

I agrees with most comment, this is a huge project... it need more than a regular Venture capitalist to roll this out.

It need to break many of the fundamental laws of physics as well to be come profitable at all.

Do you have any idea how much 90,000 gallons of fresh water weights over well over 375 tons. It will cost over 20+ dollars per ton just to transport the water alone back from your short journey that is over $7,500! You are at a huge profit loss just in the cost of moving the water alone one way. Not even including the dead weight of the ship, the cost to move the ships out there and magically assemble this huge container in the middle of the open ocean during a light rain storm.

"we are not going to be near shore collecting, too dangerous..open sea"
Are you f*ing crazzy! You must have never been on the open sea. The waves are a hell of a lot more dangerous to this madman plan. The waves are not small, the average height of an ocean wave is about 10-12 feet on the open sea. They can get well over 50 feet during a storm.

Also, the problem with 3rd word countries is that they do not have grid water access. Also, they there is a cave man solution for this it is called fire! It is not that hard to boil water. Many companies have made cost effective water purifying solutions as well for 3rd world countries.

Finally as stated before this is in no way a logical solution to the water problem. There are many existing methods that cost a lot less and are not as complex. Bottom line this idea is not going to turn any kind of profit. In-fact it will cost you way more money then then it will ever make.

Kevin, not sure if you saw the whole thread or info I put out but lets go on your example: If I can get just this 90k gallons of water to shore at the cost you provide and I can take half of that for bottled water 45k and put into 250ml bottles (@ 3.8liters per gallon gives approx 15 bottles) and I can sell them for $1 a piece and make say 20cent off each bottle..For 45k gallons, that is $674,980.00 per load..I think that will cover the cost you list..Of course there are other costs as well and you still might be right bout the profit, but I think with this one particular case you list, I am covered..

As for out to sea? yes 13years in the US Navy and 6 at sea and I could confidently say that I have crossed the ocean and thru a few storms..The ocean isnt always rough and with 10-12 feet waves its not bad for a large ship that has a weather deck 3-4 stories up..Plus large ships tend to plow thru small swells..Yes going thru a heavy storm or heavy swells would be reason to retract the catchment device to ensure the fresh water is not harmed..The idea is not to go into the middle of the storm but to skirt it and collect along the peripheral...Also not all rain events at sea have heavy swells associated with them..Been there and done that, have the shellback card to prove it..

And for your third reason, that is true, there are some good purifier systems out there..The catch is, is there water easily accessible or is the system cheap enough to use. If the UN and other aid agencies are reporting billions of people without easy access to clean water or millions die each year from water-associated diseases, then what gives?

As I said before, the bottled water is to go to the rich countries (those that pay $1 for a small bottle of water) to cover the cost of this whole thing..The locals get a slice of the water that comes off the ship and once treated can do whatever they like with it..Hopefully it will build a small entreprenuerial spirit in the locals with water delivery, crop irrigation, industrial use, drinking water (those that have to travel distances to collect water for their home),etc...

As for your analysis of how this will work...You might be right..There are less costly ways NOW for alot of this but they dont work in all cases..And in the future as the population grows, the use of water grows but the amount of fresh water might not keep up..Then this might become more attractive..If I have the infrastructure in place, I can then make more money because I believe the customer base will grow..

As with oil, when it was and still kinda is - cheap and plentiful, there is little need to look to alternative sources..As it gets more expensive the alternatives become more attractive..Those that were laughed at and naysay'd during the cheap period will stand to reap the windfall when oil resources dwindle (literally!)

Of course it might not work.. You know what happens if we dont try, right? It will never work...

Jim

4 stars for courage and faith to your magnanimous dream!

I was in the Navy for 24 years and see many challenges with your plan - Capturing, moving and storing enough water to make it viable being not the least. You might sail for weeks before finding rainfall.
If you used nuclear powered (or some other very low bulk fuel) you might be able to store enough water onboard...
Anyway, this is a huge problem and I really admire you taking a stab at a solution! Keep thinking as that is the only way this one will get solved.

Thank you everyone for your comments, I think I will pursue as a humanitarian effort that strives to be self-sustaining.. Time to write the bizplan for this and some summaries for the NGOs and gov orgs...

Thanks again for airin out the issues with this..

Jim