I think the idea is superb but it need more suggestion from CH members to make it can go further. I like the term of ' micro-investment' although it is tough to get funds from the crowd. Cool idea!

Thanks Iskandar. A payment vehicle will make it easy. Im counting on at Doymarn's EzPurse 2.0 and/or Cycko's NPEG.

Its like Wisdom of the Crowd expressed in monetary terms. Good Idea!

I Like the idea.

This could be a killer feature for CH. Help get the ball rolling on many things.

at least there's a real Angle amongs us than those empty interest of "I WANT IN ON THIS" and "work on this business appeal"....

please keep me posted...were both in the same archipelago..i coul dmake a visit an see how can yuou help my team regaring my iPeggEd project.

I submitted an idea along these lines as an Innovation Investment Bank.
I think it is a fine idea you have along the same lines - but it may conflict a little with Cambrian House, as they like to fund and develope and obtain shares in equity when an idea is backed by the whole of the Cambrian House crowd.
The different with ideas such as yours, is that people can invest small amounts of money instead of off-the-cuff comments or ratings. One Cyber Dollar expresses a person's opinions better than any other gesture!
I would like to be involved in this idea.

Thanks everyone for the encouraging comments. Jet_Kirk I read your idea, and I must admit that we have glaring similarities. And I also read the comments, there are people who have expressed support and participation to your version. I can only say it again that the universe is indeed abundant. This project can be larger than what can be captured in 1000 characters. And there will be room wide enough for thousands to be involved and be benefitted by this project. And definitely, you are welcome to be part of its the core team.

I don't think this idea may conflict with CH. It will in fact serve its vision that crowd-sourced products will thrive. If ever this idea is a competition to the a prospective CH-governed project not yet disclosed to the crowd and I am unaware of, , Im sure there will be a win-win solution to that.

This is still a seed idea. The only design consideration that shaped this idea was the lego-business concept of Cycko's Xkonek.net which I think was a result of a process of discernment what really impedes the process business development in a crowd-sourcing environment. This project represent only a block, one of the lego parts to form a business. With more inputs from the crowd, it can blossom into something bigger.
Please keep the suggestions and new insights coming.

I think this idea is niching on the Seed funding stage. CH or another business can take on the succeeding funding rounds if they want to. So conflict of interest can be avoided.

I pray that Angelic Crowd will move swiftly. My ideas had been gathering dusts for quite a while. People commented positively but except for a few no one came back to ask why it is not progressing nor offering a helping hand. I find it absurd also to sell in the Bazzaar. Selling it outright indicates that you yourself do not believe in your idea to fly and just go for a quick cash.

With Angelic Crowd, I can also rally my friends, associates and relatives to invest on my project and even that of others. It is easier to convince them when their investments are managed by a third party.

I am behind you LoveTech.

Ohh! You ran over my idea Lovetech. I was working hard for it and no use submitting it, it is stale now. Its about tapping Overseas Filipino Workers (OFW) income to be remitted as investments at home rather than just for consumption. The first stage, confidence building stage, is about micro-investments very similar to Angelic Crowd. 9 million OFWs @ $1 each, imagine? What I had in mind is what you said something larger than the seed idea. If I will force it, it wont get Angel funding assistance from you anyway. :-) I have no recourse except ask you to consider me in your team. OK?

The race is on. New ideas like these will come forth and occupy a niche in the evolving web of "meta"- business as the xkonek seeks to exemplify.

One of my criteria in scoring ideas is how is it connected and what are the potentials of its connectivity to other businesses. And it is my belief that the main mettle of crowdsourcing-CH model follow this rule: It is not the number of ideas or businesses but, the beneficial relationship between these ideas and businesses that count most.

My head bow to you Lovetech for synthesizing the insights that fast, straight from the round-table discussions.

Like it!
Tommy

Great idea. Early stage funding is always difficult to secure. Stock for Investment vi CH - who could ask for more

Personally I'm getting a little tired of these ideas that intend to leech off other good ideas on CH.

Come on people think of something outside the CH box.

will I be able to use my accrued (CH) C$ to fund with?
I can see value in that!

E115 said:

Personally I'm getting a little tired of these ideas that intend to leech off other good ideas on CH. Come on people think of something outside the CH box.

Reality says: Most of the projects get stuck. People are searching for solutions.

EE15's idea on on CVR is not original as the comments suggests. But no one called him a leech!

Maybe because people (except himself) believe the quotation in his profile that says: Every crowd has a silver lining. - Barnum

I'm for anyone finding solutions to the #1 deal breaker for most of us-Money! Sounds like a great idea-keep running with it. To the naysayers I say "got anything better?"

what about legal aspects? Identity, shareholders agreements etc. Will an Angel even be interested in a project/company that has hundreds or more investors ranging from 1 to $100 ??

The Guru: The Crowd (in their hundreds if not tens of thousands) thru AngelicCrowd (proposed company) is the Angel that will bridge a business project to the VC funding stage. I think this is the differentiation from Moogy's Micro-Investment and Jet_Kirks Innovation Investment Bank and others that E115 is insinuating that I "leeched" off.

Maybe the correct question is: Will the VC (not the Angel)even be interested in a project/company that has hundreds or more investors ranging from 1 to $100 ??

My answer to this is why not? He will not be talking to each and everyone of them but to the the company. AngelicCrowd intends to divest its RP and equity into liquid cash to VC if a good deal is agreed upon. After the AngelicCrowd divestment, by then, the VC and the original business owner/s are the only stockholders left in their march towards IPO.

About the legal questions, I cant answer it right here. I think POC will come in to help me on this but that would be in the Business Development Stage. POC or the participants is crucial in formulating the feasibility studies (including legal feasibility) in their respective countries where this business can reach out.

Please keep the ideas and suggestions coming.

Gzep, the idea is it has to be integrated and interfaced in the Cambrian House economy. Its primary purpose is to serve the CH crowd and mobilize resources from the Crowd. Maybe the slogan is: From the Crowd to the Crowd.

But it will open also its door to the outside world where the crowd lived and find new markets there.

Thanks Hoot. Very welcome support.

Kyera, I found another Idea of E115. Its also about micropayment. Its good, has its own merit and I voted positive for it.

I think its brilliant and you should go with it. Easy for people to be negative.

Take it all the way youg ot my support

brgds Downunder

Great idea.. I like your approach.

Maybe "leech" is a strong word, but its an idea that will only work if succeful ideas are bred here. Take Marketting Mob as another example, these are both just support for the real money spinner.

FYI - CVR wasn't my idea, it was an idea from a member of CH that got transfered to me. I just wanted to the code it! However got left holding the baby... so to speak.

Is Dragons crowd a better name?

GREAT IDEA!! The crowd helping the crowd !

You have my vote!

EE15, I think dependency is right word. In that case, your comment is well taken. AS part of the feasibility study in the business development stage, assumptions on dependencies will be analyzed . If its going to be a killer assumption, then we have no recourse but to abandon the project or redesign it. I think nobody wants to be burned at stake here. :-) And I suppose WOC will make sure of that.

Cheers,

Lovetech

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea, but I think that there will be legal problems - I'm hopefully being helpful by identifying potential showstoppers early on. One issue I still see after your explanation, is that no matter how you slice, it you end up having many people effectively owning shares - and those people need to be legally identified and registered, as well as somehow agreeing to shareholder's agreements. For eg. this mechanism already exists for investment pooling, but is strictly regulated - particularly for gains made w.r.t. income tax purposes. This would present a substantial administrative overhead, that could not be justified for a 10c or 1$ investor.

great idea

Don't we already have this? If I think an idea is great and should be funded, I could offer to fund it if I had the money. The only difference is percentages are negotiated privately.

I think that the idea in principle is a good one, nevertheless a lot of work will need to be done to get the mechanics right, but that is the same with any idea. I do like this.

Does the 50% of RP too high for start?

When it still under cosultative management phase and 20% when incorported?
Will Angelic Crowd be still around when managing financial information during times of significant growth? Or the is it up to VC after transitory assistance you are envisioning? I wish CH will give their own view (if this is seemingly parallel to their 'support') so IDEA author would not be confuse whom or where to go to.

The Guru, your posts are very helpful indeed. Comment like that surfaces imperatives erstwhile hidden in ideas that are still raw. I'm not an expert on investments so i have to muster all possible brainy allies to get their opinions about the the legal impediments this project is facing. I'm also doing some research on this. My research and the inputs from friends here have considered some possibilities:

a) Angelic Crowd (AC)may adopt a modified operating structure of a mutual fund.
b) Its important roles are to manage the fund at the same time provide oversight in the implementation and development of client-businesses.
c) Investments will go through the CH economy (assuming this fits to CH plans). Meaning people have to purchase Cambros with their dollars and invest on the Fund using the CH currency. Their investments are treated as managed fund not as equity. When one project cycle is over (VC has acquired the royalty rights and stocks of AC), dividends given to the crowd can be Cambro or stocks, at their option. This is where the equity issue comes in. Dividends in the form of Cambro's of course can be converted into dollars thru the CH virtual "Central Bank" assuming there is one.

More Assumptions:

1. The purchase of Cambros with dollars is taxable (if legally required by Canadian Laws) to CH as it is assumed as sales. The accumulation of pennies into millions will justify the overhead expense of CH.

2. The redemption of Cambros (dividends) into Dollars is taxable (if legally required) to the redeeming person as its is assumed as personal income.

3. Taxation will depend on the specific laws of the country of origin of the natural or juridical person.

4. Transactions involving only Cambros (virtual currency) are assumed as internal to the virtual economy of CH and non-taxable as some legal experts opined.

5. Equity issues like stock dividends issued by AC is considered as external to CH and therefore subject to corporate laws of the country where AC is registered.

6. CH will provide mechanisms that the legal identity and integrity of persons joining the community will be ensured enabling them to transact legitimately. There is a big debate in one thread if people real name instead of alias should be in the avatar.

This is all for the moment. Comments and additional insights are welcome.

P.S. This post is a product of the Round Table Discussions by several passionate Ch'ers here in my City, Davao, Philippines.

50% and 20% are just a benchmarks. It could be higher or lower depending on the appraisal of the quality and potential of the business idea. If the idea is Google- like, AC may settle with 2% and 1%. :-)

On your second question: Angelic Crowd will exit when the VC comes in.
Thank you for the comment.

Thanks also Patrick, David and Mark.

This is for Saigon:-)

50% and 20% are just a benchmarks. It could be higher or lower depending on the appraisal of the quality and potential of the business idea. If the idea is Google- like, AC may settle with 2% and 1%. :-)

On your second question: Angelic Crowd will exit when the VC comes in.
Thank you for the comment.

Ooh i think i know who's gonna win!

Great Job, if you need help with it I'm glad to lend a hand

So each CH'er will have their virtual wallet inside to be able to transfer their micro-investments to the AC Fund. If my idea on the Newbie Virtual Wallet (not an entry in this contest) works, we can also mobilize penny investments from millions people in the bottom of the pyramid to fund CH projects and in the process stimulating and unlocking their entrepreneurial competencies.

This is a great idea - and although it would work well as part of CH there is absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be a standalone business backing ideas from CH, any other Popular Equity institutions and, indeed, any idea from whatever area it may come. Keep me informed on it - please. Am keen to help.

First of all, I love the idea. However, I think there are so many legal issues with respect to this idea that I just can't give it my vote.

This is an interesting dilema: should the CH community support good ideas even if they have serious legal implications? For example, a great idea for a website is one where I can type in any TV show, movie, or song and it would play instantly through my browser. Technically it can be done, but there are so many legal problems with the idea that I can't imagine the CH community would be supportive of it.

Again, I think this is a fantastic idea, and the legal analysis in the comments above is a good start. Work out the legal aspects and I'm 100% onboard with this. :)

Yes and thanks Cougar your concerns are good points too. Its a reiteration of The Guru's and others.

Here's some ideas from our small CH crowd down here:

The biggests challenge for the community to be able make revolutionary products here is to:
-overcome the fear of the unknown;
- possess the tenacity to challenge tradition and conventions
- Question old assumptions
- ready to be a "beserker" when absolutely necessary.
- think outside of the box
- believe in the primacy of crowd genius over individual genius

Inspiring stories about these are plenty: the Apollo 11 mission, Mao Zedong's Long March, the Vietnam War, Japan's concept of quality and its meteoric rise from the ruins of war, etc. In the world of hyper-competition, business invented the concept of reengineering because of this challenge.

About the dilemma you are concern about:

Maybe the crowd thinking process on seemingly "fantastic" ideas are based on these judgment criteria:

1.utterly impossible (stupid idea)
2.remote possibility (difficult to implement, too risky)
3.real possibility (with the resources from crowd, it can be done with relative ease)
4. An imperative possibility: (difficult but it has to be done no matter what)

Before ending this post I'd like to quote with Neil Armstrong's immortal words from the Moon: "One small step for a man, a giant leap for mankind." Its not the rhetoric, its the painstaking effort and undeviating pursuit of the course of action taken by a collective genius of NASA scientists and engineers that embody those words.

I hope this will sustain the crowd interest on the idea.

Cheers,

Lovetech

P.S.

Cougar is right, we (not me alone) have to work out the legal aspects. Passion alone can't make an idea successful. It need some science also. Keep the suggestions and advices coming. Paging Jill, I know who are. :-)

My ideas did not catch the interest of the crowd in the past. Ill give it another try in next week tournament. If it is good, and Angelic Crowd is present, I think it has still hope even if it will not win the contest. My mom and dad said I can't give my vote to Lovetech here even if I like to. I'm still a minor though I voted a few times in the old tournament before to support their ideas. I thought it was alright. But they said I can express my support to the ideas here. They helped me make this message clearly expressed. They said we can be a little crowd in the family. We just abide with the rules. But my older brother and younger sister prefer and spend their time at Friendsters.

I thank "Ate" Lovetech for the hope.

Ha, LT, I love your passion - that's the key to getting something like this off the ground. You won me (and my vote) over with your passion, good luck!!

My CH profile expresses my cautious views about giving money to strangers.

However, I know there is a lot of excitement everytime micro-investment is discussed around here.

I wonder if the people who run Kiva.com would be interested in supporting virtual businesses, or if the Kiva.com model even fits with this idea. As I understand it, Kiva.com organizes loans for small businesses where a tiny investment can make a huge difference, e.g. a weaver gets a loan to buy a loom.

Maybe if you look at the Kiva model there will be a starting point for the legal questions your idea raises.

In that model, I believe that the investors are angels who are willing to lose 100% of their money. At the very best, I believe, they get repaid, but there is no interest or gain. However, there is the overall positive result of doing something good.

So, if your objective is simply to get virtual businesses going, would the Kiva.com model work?

If your objective is to make money for the investors (as well as getting the businesses going), then I think the legal issues start to become more problematic.

Can you separate the two objectives and perhaps have an idea that deals with only the first one?

And regarding the Offshore Workers (OFWs or Offshore Workers from any country), it would be good if there were ethical ways for people to remit money by way of investment. I wonder if the Grameen Bank offers an avenue for doing that, or Kiva.com, or anything similar - some organization which can be trusted and effective. It's a little off topic but if anyone knows I would be interested in reading your views.

BTW my CH email is broken so if anyone has emailed me and not had a reply please don't be offended. I told CH it is not urgent, they can fix it whenever they have time.

An excellent idea. I hope we can get this one up and running quickly as I could really do with such a facility for blastfm.

With my more than 10 years in social development work (NGOs), I'm quite familiar with the working of Grameen model of micro-finance because it is one of the most popular examples for NGOs that wanted to emulate in working with the "unbankable" poor. This "bank of the poor" had also experienced spectacular growth and along the way have reached and benefitted a lot of marginalized and unschooled people in Bangladesh majority of them women. Grameen's success story culminated into the awarding of the prestigious Nobel Price to its founder Muhammad Yunus .

When Professor Yunus started with the Grameen Bank project he was also challenged by pundits claiming that his vision will have to pass a gauntlet that will make it impossible for his project to survive. But with sheer determination and drawing mainly its strengths from the very people he served, the professor defied all the odds and move on ultimately to the pinnacle of success. Lesson: That's how WOC and POC operates prior to web2.0.

But I think Grameen Bank operates in a setting that is very different from the context of Lovetech's idea on Angelic Crowd. This is a solution being offered in an internet enabled crowdsourcing environment responding to the felt need that a lot of projects here in CH is looking for catalyst so that these projects will progress convincingly to the advance stages of business development. The Angelic Crowd is also putting forward the idea that if it can be done here, the model can be extended to communities beyond CH but still making use of the state of the art technologies that will make this possible to happen. That probably where Crowdsourcing and Grameen model will meet in the future. But that is quite the distant future yet.

On some issues, I think investors MUST have the prospect of having a returns on their investments despite having to hurdle some legal questions. Taking this out, this project will be devoid of the compelling reason why the crowd will invest aside from stripping the project with entrepreneurship- an essential ingredient of a successful business whether its crowdsource or not. The investments whether they are pennies or grand should be accorded with "beserker" type of effort to have a return. Because ROI to investors also means, Angelic Crowd have succeeded in its mission in making the businesses reached the VC stage and move forward towards their fullest potentials.

But first things first, can the Angelic Crowd concept be done inside the CH environment? Are the legal challenges insurmountable? Is it impossible? Is it an imperative? I'm buying the last one. :-)

Thanks Jill, Cycko

Maybe a compromise is AC selling "virtual bonds" convertible into real shares in the future when the legal obstructions are cleared or circumvented. "Virtual bonds" are only governed by a social contract, just like the stock we own here in CH.

Thank you also for the generous vote Cougar and Anathema. I spotted the movement of my score when you casted your votes. Keep it that way Lerkydoodleddo, you are sincerely appreciated. Hope someday there will be a CH version exclusive for kids. Don't abandon your Friendster while being here. You don't have to loose your childhood while trying to be an adult once in a while. :-)

We have less than a day left. Hope more legal opinions will come in to guide the upcoming votes.

Thanks Cycko for replying to my comments.

In its simplest form, this idea seems to be: "How can somebody get money by saying they will use it to pay for the development of their idea?"

That is a question with a lot of answers. The whole area of investment and securities regulation is aimed at trying to come up with fair answers to this question! I am not even going to start commenting on the legal issues because I think it is going to take us down a sidetrack which is not productive.

I wonder if this idea is somewhat hypothetical anyway. I suspect that almost everyone here wants to receive money, not to invest it.

I hate to be too negative but my feeling is that it is more productive to work on actual projects than it is to work on this funding mechanism.

What IS available here in CH is the possibility of trading labour for labour, and possibly becoming cross-owners in the projects of others.

So, good for you LT for putting the energy into this idea, but it is not an idea I can really support. Sorry.

I had a further thought, and it's a simple way of saying what I have been trying to say.

When an investor with money really wants to make an investment in something, they will find a way on their own.

No need to build a system to accommodate them.

Thank you for your frankness Jill. And I immediately noticed the drop of 2 points in my overall score. I hope its you. I can take negative votes with open comments but get frustrated when it is done with out saying a word.

I have serious disagreement with your statements. But I will PM you on that rather than posting them here.

Is Jill an organic personnel of CH? If she is, I think Ch is not comfortable with this idea. Maybe the management think it should be CH that run this business not AC.

Statements like below has double meaning:

"almost everyone here wants to receive money, not to invest it"

"it is more productive to work on actual projects than it is to work on this funding mechanism."

"What IS available here in CH is the possibility of trading labour for labour,"

Wondering what is CH actually?

No Kyera, I don't think so. This is just the wisdom of the crowd taking its natural course. Diverse and opposing ideas are part of that reality. I share your anxiety. But supposing CH should be the one playing the role of AC what's wrong with that? CH is the Crowd and the Crowd is CH, don't you think? With CH resources, it could be that the idea will be implemented faster and better for the benefit of all. The universe is abundant. :-)

For once here is a fresh Idea which can help other ideas, my votes for you. Only thing I would add out here is, If CH can bring all the idea generators, I am sure we can get some idea funders. Accepted there are a lot of legalities involved but give me a scenario where it can never been worked out.

LoveTech, thanks for your comment above. My CH email is broken ;-( and so I cannot read your PM, I'm sorry.

Kyera, and anyone else who is wondering, I am independent of CH and my comments are my own.

I did not mean for my comments to have double meanings.

Here is why I am negative on this idea.

When a project or business idea is really good, and somebody wants to invest in it, the investor will do the work to figure out how to make the investment.

chet said, "give me a scenario where it can never be[en] worked out".

Here is a very general idea of some scenarios. Individual situations may differ greatly from this.

North American securities laws are set up to protect investors. If you are trying to sell shares to people (or trying to get them to make any kind of investment - shares, debt, whatever) - you typically have to conform to regulatory requirements in order to make that sale. Sometimes that involves a lot of work, energy and expense - and then at the end there is no guarantee that anyone will actually invest.

It is far easier to let the purchaser of the securities, i.e. the investor, decide that they want to invest and then let them propose how it can be done. Otherwise you are setting out to create an investment scenario which could work for the whole cyberspace world, and to me that seems overly complex.

I admire LT for putting work into this idea and for defending it but in the end my position is that there will be a better return from energy invested in making good ideas into good businesses or good products. CH can be a showcase for those, and as such can function as the place where investors can spot projects they like.

I hope this makes sense.

Kyera, in response to your question of "what is CH actually?", that is not for me to explain but there is a lot of information on the CH website and you can always start a forum thread to ask questions about it.

Finally, LT, if your idea can be made much more narrow - for example if you are thinking of confining it to one legal jurisdiction or location where the law on investment would permit your idea to flourish without much effort, then I would be interested in hearing the details of that. As it is, my position is that it is too much effort for too little reward to try and build a universal investment system here.

I would love to be proven wrong. However, I would be disappointed if this Angel project diverted energy away from other projects which are easier to commercialize.

Great idea :)
Similar in many ways to a concept CH has been tossing around called crowd funding. A lot of issues to wade through, though. Glad to see these types of innovative ideas in CH. Great work.

Thanks Jill. Any minute from now this week's tournament is over. If this idea is going to win, its just the beginning of a very difficult and long journey. The next thing to do is to start to drawing the steps towards its fulfillment. I have no recourse but to gather strength from POC to make this happen.

Congratulations LoveTech. I look forward to seeing the project come to life

Congratulations, LoveTech. It will be interesting to see how you develop this one.

As I said in my last post, I would love to be proven wrong in my opinion of how this will play out. I will be watching from time to time to see what happens!

Cheers,

jill

Congratulations LoveTech!!...

Thanks to everyone! We have passed the initial test. That was quite an interesting battle of wits we've been through. This is not just an ordinary project, it is something like defying the laws of gravity. We know pushing this on we need to know how to swallow blades, eat fire and to walk on burning charcoals. We must if we need to.

I also thank our little group here in Davao, Philippines. Many of my comments here are synthesis of series of round table discussions which is reflective of the warm, passionate and sometimes emotional exchange of ideas here in CH. Believe me, our attitudes, beliefs and philosophies are as diverse as what we observed in the CH crowd.

The term "bitten by the CH bug", is true here among us. We are even unknown here in our place and because of CH and we were surprised that we found ourselves in a global platform exchanging fires with thinkers, professionals and specialists from all over the world.

But what is more exhilarating is we feel that we have the chance to change not only ourselves but also the world.

There's a lot work to be done. But in the meantime please allow me to catch some sleep and to recharge. :-)

Something similar to this is already available at http://www.prosper.com

Prosper focuses on peer to peer lending. Its not based on the viability of the project but on the lendign of money for a return rate.

Lovetech you idea will bind the investors to the company as shareholder's not not loaners. Correct??

Whats the latest Love tech? havent heard anything frm you...

Love the idea, you should get an angelic crowd to work on this!

Hi everyone! Especially to you, Saigon with your undeviating pursuit here at CH. I just woke up from a long "slumber" not to sleep over my idea but to work on it. The viability of an idea is like a chain with its weakest link as the possible downer. The ambition of the project is to attract and put to life the pennies of ordinary people or what we call newbies and make them able to create new wealth and productivity. But how can they invest their pennies? I discerned that a payment gateway is the weakest spot of the Angelic Crowd so I devoted my time to help Cycko's NPEG project. It will be piloted anytime in another brand name here in the Philippines for commercial operations. When there will already be convincing proof of concept, we will bring it back to CH for possible replication in other countries where it can serve the need of their respective social conditions. With that, Angelic Crowd will be working in the framework of bridging the digital divide where ordinary people are participants or active stakeholders and not just end beneficiaries of the so called New Economy.

They put us this early in a head on collision. Let us not worry, whoever the crowd chooses in this round or tournament as a whole will make us all winners. All the ideas in this tournament are great as they are here because of WOC, who can question it? Good luck to all of us. :-)

TOC Q3

To LoveTech and her Angelic Crowd

Wow 50% of my profits eh? And 20% owner ship… That’s huge. For a lot of Entrepreneurs profit is that little carrot over their head that keeps them working hard towards a goal. If you are taking such a huge chunk out of my business right off the bat what is going to replace that carrot if it’s no longer profit?

http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=0Ui0y9n5ptY

Lovetech-
cool concept but how is this not considered selling stock to the public? Not to naysay but I think you will find that this has SEC violation written all over it. CH is presumably avoiding this concern because there is no cash changing hands but I belive you will find when you publicly solicit investors for what is essentially a stock, you are going to raise eyebrows at the SEC if it's not a registered security. have you checked into this?

sean

I think with so many shareholders, any company would be obliged to operate as reporting public company even if it wasn't being traded on any exchange. The administration would be an issue for most start ups, I would imagine. I don't know if this point may have been made already.

Game

Hi Scroolin, GL and Game,

Thanks for the comments. Your questions had been raised already and somehow been provided with answers, although I must admit, the answers are not authoritative. Let me dig them up:

On circumventing legal issues:

a) Angelic Crowd (AC)may adopt a modified operating structure of a mutual fund.
b) Its important roles are to manage the fund at the same time provide oversight in the implementation and development of client-businesses.
c) Investments will go through the CH economy (assuming this fits to CH plans). Meaning people have to purchase Cambros with their dollars and invest on the Fund using the CH currency. Their investments are treated as managed fund not as equity. When one project cycle is over (VC has acquired the royalty rights and stocks of AC), dividends given to the crowd can be Cambro or stocks, at their option. This is where the equity issue comes in. Dividends in the form of Cambro's of course can be converted into dollars thru the CH virtual "Central Bank" assuming there is one.

More Assumptions:

1. The purchase of Cambros with dollars is taxable (if legally required by Canadian Laws) to CH as it is assumed as sales. The accumulation of pennies into millions will justify the overhead expense of CH.

2. The redemption of Cambros (dividends) into Dollars is taxable (if legally required) to the redeeming person as its is assumed as personal income.

3. Taxation will depend on the specific laws of the country of origin of the natural or juridical person.

4. Transactions involving only Cambros (virtual currency) are assumed as internal to the virtual economy of CH and non-taxable as some legal experts opined.

5. Equity issues like stock dividends issued by AC is considered as external to CH and therefore subject to corporate laws of the country where AC is registered.

On the issue of ownership and profit sharing

50% RP and 20% equity are just a benchmarks. It could be higher or lower depending on the appraisal of the quality and potential of the business idea.It could be "either" or both, or If the idea is Google- like, AC may settle with 2% and 1%. :-)

More on legal ramifications:

The world is rapidly changing, we all know that. There will always be clash between new inventions and existing laws and traditions. When the invention is revolutionary its natural course is either to circumvent the reactionary laws or just simply demolish them. This does not apply only to this project but maybe to the web 2.0 as a whole.

Lastly,

When the real world is already too tight, repressive and crowdy to live, isn't it the reason why man invented cyberspace? Man invented capitalism and then socialism and then reinvented capitalism and maybe soon will reinvent socialism.

This sounds like a simple ch add-on for investors.

Congratulations for hurdling the first round of TOC...3 more rounds!

Saigon:

Thanks Saigon. Surviving the previous round is exhilarating. The voters decided on the merit of the idea. Pure and 100%. No PM campaigns, the RTD group including myself abstained. We only voted on the other 7 contending pairs. But we are also saddened, only two of the 7 we voted succeeded to be in the round of 8.

Kevin:
Yes sounds like one, Kevin. The idea if applicable can be integrated in the CH system. It can also be implemented somewhere else in another setting or firm. My foremost dream on this is this can be implemented in a Third World Country like Philippines -- mobilizing penny investments from the grass root level and fund big projects with a web 2.0 platform as an enabler.

This idea is for the whole world to take. I just hope it will result to many business projects (with or without my participation) that can help bridge the digital divide.

This idea stands out in this round as being developed and thought-out enough that it could well go on to become a successful business. Good luck with it!

What if for example the Business or Idea is actually a Company already working?, but they need funds to let's say start an international marketing campaign? I mean they've already invested let's say quarter million dollars in machinery, buildings and supplies, they are already producing things like Jeans for example, and all they need is some funds fast, let's say they need 50,000, and from that investment they will have earnings for 50,000 each year... I think such company will find that 50% in RP and 20% of equity is too much... you only gave them 50,000 and you will want to receive a 50% of the 250,000 company value?... More over... how do you ensure that you are not going to loose those 50,000?... I mean I get the money and bye bye... gone to Africa... How much time does this "credit line" will have to be paid?... How you ensure the success of an Idea?... The idea may be too good at the begining... but then new regulations appear and you are broken... Take a lead melting company for example... they depend on the current market price for lead... what if it goes down?... for a company to start earning it requires some Years or at least one year to recover from the first investment... and during this time it's really almost impossible to see profits... What if I simply go to a Bank and extend my loan?... they will not require shares or a portion of my profit... all they will require is me to pay the loan and some interests... that's all... perhaps you should reconsider this a little bit... But it's a great idea, however you must change participation rates according to level of investment and participation of that investment vs. the total value of the business or company... something like 50,000/250,000 = 20% of the profits... or act as a loan... 25,000 each year to repay the debt + 2% of the total loan value each month... that makes 12,000 aditional each year...

Hi Philip and argv,

Thanks for appreciating the idea. On Argv what if's:

Here's one process Im familar with on e-finance 101.

Stage 1: Entrepreneur conceived a business idea. He presented a pitch to an Angel Investor. Angel investor agree to fund the development of the idea as well as the developmenbt of its business plan, the products (software), building the team, etc.. Until it is ready for deploymewnt to the market place.

Stage 2: They need fund for the commercialization phase. So together they will look for a VC to finance the commercial operations. So for example the business flourished and is ripe for say, international expansion and it needs a huge capital for it. Time to move to the next stage.

Stage 3: IPO. I think We all know about it. That getting fund from the public.

Now in stage 1,instead of looking for an Angel Individual who have considerable sum to finance jumpstarting the business, we will replace that piece of the puzzle with the crowd with their "pennies" as investment. That's why, Angelic Crowd is the idea title. So it will just cater to business that are still in stage 1 and will bridge it to stage 2. So it wont cater to already established businesses needing to expand or going towards stage 3- perhaps the VCs and Banks are best to address that funding requirement.

Its like the basic CH thing, we vote for the ideas we like. In this project, we will vote with a dollar or a hundred that go along with it depending on how we rate the idea.

Idea is awesome & perfectly suited to this platform, I hope it's a winner. Have to say though, I think Crowd of Angels might be a better name. Flock of Angels? Or maybe Crowdfunding. Even just Angel Crowd - 'angelic' somehow just carries a whole different connotation.

Not a bad idea at all, I like it...

Bravo Jill,

In my opinion your comments of June 13 (10:24 am) are spot on, and should be copied to most of the sites on CH which discuss investments.

However, may I beg to differ slightly with your following comment:

Quote: "Finally, LT, if your idea can be made much more narrow - for example if you are thinking of confining it to one legal jurisdiction or location where the law on investment would permit your idea to flourish without much effort, then I would be interested in hearing the details of that. As it is, my position is that it is too much effort for too little reward to try and build a universal investment system here."

I agree that these types of investment ideas may be proposed legally in "certain" jurisdictions, however in my opinion if they were proposed on this CH site they would be liable to North American Securities regulations and requirements, which would entail the writing of a full prospectus etc, as there are thousands of prospective investors here.

Is this idea getting forward? Is CH interested in cooperation?

This might be useful (open source micro-finance product):

http://www.mifos.org/product

The product demo shows the creation of accounts and groups. Maybe you tie an account or group to an idea. It's open source so you can customize it to your needs or at least learn from the code/design.

So what happened next?