Ideas

Awesome idea if i may say so.

The only concerns I have with this idea is what happens if the author doesn't finish the book? Would everyone who donated lose their money? Would the author have to give all the money back? What happens if the author doesn't give the money back? What happens if the author takes several years to write the book and by the time they finish their supporters have left your website?

I know it sounds a bit sad, doubting the authors, but I can see it happening where people sign up as an author and just write a good first chapter and call it quits only to collect money from people who liked the chapter.

Thanks for taking the time for this feedback! I dont have all the answers yet but lets give it a shot!

I was thinking the author would write the first chapter to entice a following. When they do get READERS to sponsor them, it will give them motivation to complete the next chapter. The READERS will be the only ones who have access to the next chapter after it is written. In other words if you are not a READER for this AUTHOR, you will not see the second chapter. A timeframe will be set for the AUTHOR to complete the next chapter in order to ensure the READERS are not left in the dust. If the AUTHOR does not complete the book, the monies will be used as credits for the READERS to use on another AUTHOR on the website.

The monies would be held in trust by the website until the time the author has completed the book. When the book is completed it will be packaged and delivered to the READERS who invested in the book. After this is completed, the AUTHOR will get the monies for all the time he invested in writing the book. The AUTHOR will also enjoy a genuine following that could help the publisher make a decision on publishing the book.

The READERS would be excited to be part of a book that could be the next best seller. They will also have insights to the chapters giving the AUTHOR feedback. They will also have a % of the sales of the book sold on the website.

The AUTHOR will be motivated to complete their book for two reasons. Having a READER following who are waiting for the next exciting chapter, and the monies they will get at the end of the book. Also they will have a leveraging stick with the publisher.

I was thinking AUTHOR HONORS would take 7% off of each READERS donation...

You seem to have a business model thats good.

Keeping the money in the hands of the website would probably be a good idea however holding on to such a large amount of money at once can be a legal nightmare. Perhaps you may want to form a deal with an escrow service.

thanks zer0. Holding on to that much money does sounds like a legal nightmare and an escrow service could be a way to go.

You could also use futurepay to charge the money only afterwards..

I think it's a good idea. My response to all of zer0's potential problems would be "too bad". This is a mechanism for speculative investment and you need to make the investors understand there is risk. That means new authors who haven't proven themselves will stand solely on their merits and might have to make do with smaller investments. But I think that a future payment arrangement removes a lot of the benefit for the writers (they need the cash now in order to focus on their writing) and would lead to a lot of complicated bookkeeping that would have a lot of liability for the site.

Basically I really like the idea. For both financial and legal reasons, I think the money should go straight to the authors and the investors have to "sign" contracts indicating they understand this is speculation and they only get rights to a portion of future revenue if the book is completed and successfully sold.

Have you done any market surveys to see if people are really willing to pay anything to unknown authors? I think Stephen King did something like this, selling a novel a chapter at a time or something, but he has an established audience. Several websites exist trying to sell short stories by relative unknowns (e.g. Orson Scott Card's site intergalacticmedicineshow.com). My perception is that they struggle financially but I don't know the real bottom line details.

A lot of this idea hinges on the fact that once the authors complete the books, you're going to be able to sell them. I don't think mainstream publishers will touch them once they've been published (even in part) online, so you're going to have to market them yourself on the site. If you can't do that, then you don't have the revenue to pay back the investors. Maybe it would be best to start the site trying to solve that final problem first, selling e-book versions of completed novels by unknowns. If you can demonstrate there is a market for this kind of work, then you could add the mechanism for authors to seek investment before completion.

Thanks for the feedback micco. I see the point of holding onto the money for the AUTHORS might cause a problem. But I feel that not doing so will cause a high string of fraudulent AUTHORS onto the website. I propose the following: AUTHORS will need to get a certain amount of READERS (say 2000 @ $10 or $20k) in order to collect any monies by their supporters.I believe the AUTHOR and READERS would support this for a few reasons. One, the READERS will have a choice before the ceiling of 20k to remove their donation to the AUTHOR and would be able to use that $10 to support another AUTHOR. But if there money is in there when it hits $20k, it is tied up with that AUTHOR. Two, the AUTHOR will probably need to write more than one chapter in order to create more buzz on their book and attract more READERS so it will give them motivation to keep writing. Did I mention that READERS are the only ones that can access more than 1 chapter of the AUTHOR?

For the payout, it wouldnt be the full amount. I would have to deduct the printing costs of the novels, shipping costs etc and the percentage the website will. Therefore out of the 20k, I imagine the payout to the AUTHOR being between 13 - 16k. So I believe for the AUTHOR, they have the motivation to promote the website and get more READERS on board for this type of commission. Also it gives the READER a sort of guarantee that they will receive a completed novel mailed to them. I havent thought about what would happen if the AUTHOR decides at that time not to complete the novel. I would think after the invested time and the following they have created this would not happen.

I also havent really thought about if this book gets published and sells thousands of copies. What % would the AUTHOR be prepared to give to the READERS that supported them throughout the process or to the website that helped them fulfill their dream? Or if publishers would have an issue with touching a book like this? I would think they wouldnt have a problem if the book already created a following of 2000 people...

To your other questions, Market surveys have not been done as of yet, but I have been reading comments from new authors on http://www.selfpublishing.com and http://booksjustbooks.com/ to get an idea of the market. I have also been on many websites and found out that one of the problems facing new aspring authors is lack of time, motivation and $$$ to begin writing their first novel. Hopefully this idea will help some of these issues.

Thanks again for the comments!

Hi,

I would really like to see this work. I however think that the idea, especially with regards to its Funding element has to be restructured.

As this proposal currently stands, you have opened a "Pandora's Box" of legal issues with the Securities and Exchange Commision.(SEC).

If you invite more than 15 American Investors into a deal, this will be considered a "Public Offering" and you will be required to write a prospectus and file with the SEC. The cost of a project such as this is around $300,000 to $800,000.

You could do this Off-Shore, but this would legally prohibit investment by Americans.

Questions: In order to succeed, does this necessarily have to be an Investment Company?

Could it be structured as a Charity ?

It may be easier to raise money as deductible charitable donations ?

See Mico's Comments below;

micco Posted: March 12, 2008, 9:32 am

I think it's a good idea. My response to all of zer0's potential problems would be "too bad". This is a mechanism for speculative investment and you need to make the investors understand there is risk. That means new authors who haven't proven themselves will stand solely on their merits and might have to make do with smaller investments. But I think that a future payment arrangement removes a lot of the benefit for the writers (they need the cash now in order to focus on their writing) and would lead to a lot of complicated bookkeeping that would have a lot of liability for the site.

Basically I really like the idea. For both financial and legal reasons, I think the money should go straight to the authors and the investors have to "sign" contracts indicating they understand this is speculation and they only get rights to a portion of future revenue if the book is completed and successfully sold.

CharonV, just to clarify, is it true that every single book deal would have to go through the prospectus and SEC filing process since they're all individual offerings? You couldn't just do this once and still treat every book as a separate deal, right?

There are many self publishing sites that can even publish down to one single book. For example: http://www.lulu.com

There are lots of them.

micco Posted: March 12, 2008, 2:15 pm

CharonV, just to clarify, is it true that every single book deal would have to go through the prospectus and SEC filing process since they're all individual offerings? You couldn't just do this once and still treat every book as a separate deal, right?

Response:

On account of costs this should be structured as one Publically Trading Entity. For example a Fund registered under the 1940 Act or a Public Company under the 1933/34 Act as amended.

Either entity would allow you to raise as much money as you wish legally.

Personally I would prefer a Charitable Trust Structure. (a) It would cost less to set up. (b) The regulatory costs would be much less under Sabins Oxley that that of a Fund or Public Company. (c) Since donations would be deductible against income, it should be possible to obtain much higher funding.

I like this. It's like a FilmRiot.com for books. Perhaps you could check in with their founders and do some collaboration work. (They happen to be CH members.)

AndyDoan is actually on the Member Council as well. A "I can help" type position.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Charon V comment on
"If you invite more than 15 American Investors into a deal, this will be considered a "Public Offering" and you will be required to write a prospectus and file with the SEC. The cost of a project such as this is around $300,000 to $800,000."

I assume you are talking about the plan on sharing the proceeds of sales to all the READERS? I was having trouble with this issue as well. I need to do some more research on this but I do see other websites who are doing the same sort of thing in particular http://www.sellaband.com. If you read the excerpt from the site it states:
"All advertising revenues generated via SellaBand will be shared equally between the SellaBand Recording Artists, their Believers and SellaBand. The amount of money you and the Artist will get paid depends on the market share the artist has in the total number of downloads on SellaBand.
Three of the songs on the CD will be given away as free Downloads. The other tracks will be sold as paid Downloads for 50 dollarcents each. The net profit of these sales will be split evenly between you, your Artist and SellaBand.: I am pretty sure the sellaband site is not dishing out 300k - 800k and I dont see a difference in their idea and mine. But let me know if I understood you correctly.

Another option would be to nix the idea of sharing in the proceeds of sales with the READERS. You are probably wondering why become a READER if you cannot share in the profits? Well lets see. Your $10 investment will give the READERS the following:
1-an opportunity to read and support a writer with potential
2-access to the next chapters completed by the artist
3-access to the author for ideas, comments on their book or writing technique. In other words maybe even having a say in the ending of the novel.
4-a limited edition (only max 2000 copies) of the writers novel with his signature. Could be worth alot of $$ if they get published.
5-maybe discounted prices to book seminars, courses etc???
6- ANY OTHER IDEAS ???

I still think its worth their $10 investment

GroundLoad: Great idea about checking in with Film Riot. I recently heard of their site. Thanks for the feedback!

By the way........
This is only me second day on this site and am really impressed with the interaction and comments from the members.

Great idea!
However I think it's not necessary to let the readers to invest, but only to pay to the writers if they like, while earning some commisions, and the system would be a "beta readers system" or something like that.

HI Dblin,

In answer to your question: http://www.sellaband.com is subject to German Law excluding EU purchasing Law.(see below).

SEC Law applies to American Citizens or residents.

If you are dealing solely with German residents(see below) the "Sellaband formula is perfectly legal, however in other Legal Jurisdictions such as the USA, it is necessary to comply with local laws. If you are intending to market to US residents, SEC regulations apply.

I aplologise for being a pain, but I would like to see this project work legally. There is always a solution, please don't get discouraged.

Quote from Sellaband Website:

"# Applicable law and jurisdiction

1. 15.1 When the artist is an entrepreneur, the provisions of these general terms and conditions are subject to material German law excluding UN purchasing law. When the artist is a consumer, agreements including these general terms and conditions are subject to German law as far as this does not conflict with binding legal provisions, and notably provisions of the law on consumers’ protection.
2. 15.2 When the artist is a merchant in the sense of the Commercial Code, a legal person of public right, or a Federal Special Fund, Sellaband’s head office shall be the exclusive place of jurisdiction for all claims arising from the use of the website. The same applies to persons who do not have a general place of jurisdiction in Germany or persons who, after conclusion of the agreement, have moved their habitual residence or abode to outside of Germany or whose habitual residence or abode is not known when legal proceedings are instituted. "

Hi again Dblin,

Your Quote: "Another option would be to nix the idea of sharing in the proceeds of sales with the READERS. You are probably wondering why become a READER if you cannot share in the profits? Well lets see. Your $10 investment will give the READERS the following:"

I think that you are missing the Legal point completely. "The Investment " bit is the problem not the distribution bit.

The SEC regulates Investments.

Anyone can all ready get published there are lots of sites that will publish your book in physical or PDF form.
For example you can literally print on demand:
http://www.lulu.com

So, I just don't get why anyone would need this site. They can all ready can publish a book for $20 or less. Plus, they could put there book in pdf form and get it hosted for free.

Sounds like a great idea. Only problem is that it would tease readers..

Thanks Kevin
Kevin_Cox comment
"So, I just don't get why anyone would need this site. They can all ready can publish a book for $20 or less. Plus, they could put there book in pdf form and get it hosted for free. "

The main focus on this idea is with helping the AUTHOR with the writing process not the publishing at the end. After a bit of research I found out that the main reasons would be AUTHORS do not get started is they dont have enough time and the monetary issue. Life and bills get in the way. So the idea is to give the AUTHOR something to work for.

Also the main viewers of the preliminary manuscripts are usually friends and family. By working to get 2000 READERS they are accomplishing a few things. Getting a broader audience to view their work that have more constructive and useful criticism. This will only help with the pubishers down the road. And two, why not get compensated for your efforts?

Charon V comment:
Thanks again!
"I aplologise for being a pain, but I would like to see this project work legally. There is always a solution, please don't get discouraged."

Never apologize! You are helping me understand my idea a little more! I will have a reply tomorrow to your explanation.

Hi dbiln,

Thanks for your response.

The main problem that I am having with the financial structure, is finding a cost effective way to allow American Citizens and or Residents to invest without bringing down the wrath of the SEC and Sabins Oxley on the project.

It's compliance with American Laws which is very expensive. For instance a lot of offshore Investment Projects prohibit US Residents from becoming investors, on account of the potential hassle.

I would prefer to avoid this solution.

Nicely done--I like the business model set up for this concept :)

"Do not get started is they dont have enough time and the monetary issue. Life and bills get in the way. So the idea is to give the AUTHOR something to work for."
If they are to lazy to write a full book then why even do that? Why not just start a blog or write cereal storys?

"Also the main viewers of the preliminary manuscripts are usually friends and family. By working to get 2000 READERS they are accomplishing a few things. Getting a broader audience to view their work that have more constructive and useful criticism."
There are sites that will host your book in PDF format or all other ebook formats at no cost to you and you can get comments from the community. Plus, you can embed it anywhere on the web.

Here is a good example:
http://www.scribd.com/

Also, if you really want to get compensated for your efforts. There are many ways to do so. Yahoo and Adobe have teamed up so you can put ads inside online pdf files. There is also the traditional way of selling the books straight.

I'd certainly participate as a customer up to the point where I have no more time left to read (I have little as-is). I'd suggest that, because the author is "giving away" the first chapter, this provides a great opportunity to present it in multiple formats. Say the author (or volunteer) reading the first chapter. Allowing (via Creative Commons license perhaps) the 1st chapter to be adapted by people into video shorts...

Basically by isolating the 1st chapter and saying "anything goes" with it, maybe its possible to reach people with your book who usually consume media in other formats.

Having said all that, I'd still have to receive a hardcopy of the book for my money. I can't really consume an entire novel in any other form (so an eBook wouldn't cut it for me once the book is done).

Gordon I hear you about not having enough time! I do agree with you on your point
"Having said all that, I'd still have to receive a hardcopy of the book for my money. I can't really consume an entire novel in any other form (so an eBook wouldn't cut it for me once the book is done). :

I too do not like sitting in front of my computer reading and would want something tangible in my hands for the $ I put into the author. Also having it signed by the author I think is a great touch.

Also, could you expand on your "video shorts" comment? I am not that tech savvy....

Have you guys even looked at the site:
http://www.lulu.com

You can literally publish and sell copy's of books on demand and print hard copy books one at a time for about $20 or less.

*I visit the site Kevin in a rush this is what i found:

-I dont see the similarities since the author(s) are given a management tool to publish their works.-

You can start a new project by clicking several places in the site, including the >Start a New Project< button at the bottom of the My Recent Projects section of the My Lulu tab. The Publish tab contains a list of many types of projects you can make through Lulu; click one to start the appropriate wizard.

You may choose to sign up first: click the "Sign Up" link located at the top of most pages to go to the Join Lulu page.

Ultimately, all paths lead to a published work that you can offer for sale. Options available depend on what you're publishing.

*I dont see how the readers collaborate to have profit as proposed dbiln idea. SInce the crators are separate entity far form being a reader.

Can Creator Revenues be divided among multiple creators?

Creator Revenues splitting is not available to our general customer base at this time. We are working on functionality to make automatic Creator Revenues splitting among multiple creators one of our regular features.

We're currently running a small Beta program with companies who have expressed an interest in this feature. We hope to expand the program in the near future. If you'd like to be added to our waiting list for this program, please fill out a help request form with an explanation of your situation and how Creator Revenues splitting would help. If we feel our system would match with your needs, we'll contact you about the current status of the program. If you are part of our Beta program and need help with Creator Revenues splitting, follow these instructions.

1. Go to your Project List in your My Lulu tab. Click the Revise icon next to the project with the Creator Revenues that you would like to split.
2. On the Project Details page, click the Revise icon in the Creator Revenues Split field.
3. The Revise Creator Revenues Split section displays a list of authors in your Contact List. Enter the amounts you want to distribute to various contacts.
4. Click the >Save< button. Your Creator Revenues division will be applied to future sales of this content.

After you have set Creator Revenues splits on a project, the Creator Revenues earned by each creator appears in the Creator Revenue Split. Follow these steps to find this information.

Lulu.com is more into creation and publishing project..while AUTHORS HONORS from the vantage view offer collaboration from reading crowds to start up a project who are strapped in cash. IN turn get a signature copy and more.

Questions in my mind are:

a) is 7% fair enough?
b) would a first chapter be enticing than the structured synopsis?
c) would this is more fun if a new book is being launched coming from first episode (i.e Harry Potter and Starwars novelletes) or a an adapted story from play or cartoon character? this would be viral!

2 kevin: Lulu is great on many things such as marketing and their POD service and yes ready publishing technology from publishing to bookstore and blitz but doest give an interactive reader based connections.

2 dbiln: I'd like to know how e-commerce would protect the READERS royalties and tax on the proposed "investment" and under which territory would legal basis will be honored in case of some dispute.

2 kevin: Lulu is great on many things such as marketing and their POD service and yes ready publishing technology from publishing to bookstore and blitz but doest give an interactive reader based connections.

2 dbiln: I'd like to know how e-commerce would protect the READERS royalties and tax on the proposed "investment" and under which territory would legal basis will be honored in case of some dispute.

I like the idea. Why not just crowdfund a book. We all get together, hire an author, put up ideas for the book, vote them up or down, have it written, published, and then sell it. We all buy a copy, promote it, send it to the NY times best seller list, and then collect royalties from book sales and the Steven Spielberg movie.

Ya, but my point is there are all ready tools for writing collaboration and review by the community. Just one example: http://www.scribd.com/

Also, there are all ready tools for publishing and you can publish book by order: http://www.lulu.com

Plus, there are plenty of online sites to sell and distribute books like: http://www.amazon.com

There is no need for anything else! Don't you see:
You can post you work for free, get feed back from the crowd and publish the books without the need for any extra funding and sell them to the masses through distribution sites like amazon and you don't have to worry about shipping to everyone individually.

I think you're missing the main point of the site Kevin. Yes the tools already exist to collaborate on books or get books self-published when they're complete. What this idea is about is providing a mechanism to support writers while they write.

Your earlier comment referred to writers as "lazy" if they couldn't write a whole book, but in fact many good writers can't write because day-to-day necessities get in the way. It's not a matter of motivation, it's a matter of finances.

Back in the renaissance, rich people sponsored writers and artists so they could just do their thing without distraction. There's not much mechanism for that now. Some artists can still get rich patrons, but you need either previous success or lucky connections to make that work. This site would allow writers to show small samples of work and try to get enough financial support to take the pressure off their day-to-day needs to allow them to write. Seems like a great thing for writers and society in general, and I don't think anything like this exists right now outside the few authors who are able to get mainstream publishing contracts with advances.

Sorry everyone but work got in the way of replying to the last few messages. Kind of funny because this is what this idea is all about. Letting authors creativity flow without getting bogged down with the question, will all this time I am spending on this book idea get me any compensation at all?

Focus Driven quote:
"Lulu.com is more into creation and publishing project..while AUTHORS HONORS from the vantage view offer collaboration from reading crowds to start up a project who are strapped in cash. IN turn get a signature copy and more."

This is exactly right. Kevin_Cox I think you are missing the idea of the website. You are thinking of the end product while this idea is about the long struggle to get to that point. The questions like:
-will I be able to spend the time to write this book without compensation?
-if it doesnt get published, will I at least get some compensation for my hard work? - 2000 READERS and you will
-will I have the motivation to keep writing? Yes if you have a small following that is awaiting the next chapter

I know alot of people, especially ages close or in retirement mode have the dream to complete a book and have it published. But what happens if it isnt published? You can still feel like a star because 2000 READERS believe in you. And if you complete that first book with that many followers, it will give you motivation to write another one.

Focus Drive quote
"Questions in my mind are:
a) is 7% fair enough?"

Do you mean 7 % is too little or too much? I havent broken down the numbers as of yet (work is still getting in the way!) but it was a number I took off the top of my head.

I think both parties, the READERS and AUTHORS have so much value getting involved with this type of venture. Its exciting, its a new concept and it helps get the AUTHORS over the biggest hurdle they have in order to get their dream fulfilled.

Imagine we had weekly editor chats for the community, or have established authors come to the site to give their opinions....the possiblities are limitless.

Interviewables quote:
"Why not just crowdfund a book. We all get together, hire an author, put up ideas for the book, vote them up or down, have it written, published, and then sell it. "

Great idea interviewables! We could have something like this as a benefit the READERS could use. We could position it where you dont have to be a great writer, we just need your ideas for the next chapter. Then the READERS who have no writing talent at all could submit their ideas for the chapter!!! There will be a vote to see whos idea is the best and that idea will be written in the book by the AUTHOR!
We then get the final book edited and see if it gets published with royalties going to the winners! Oooh the idea gets better and better....

Readers choose the setting, characters, time frame, symbolism, etc. Everyone who helps will probably buy one, especially if they are mentioned as maybe a contributing editor. Crowdsourcing at its finest.

@interviewbales: "crowd source a book?hire an author..put up the ideas.." i dont get the whole thing but some wiki tools was proposed before

see sinyc's http://www.cambrianh...er/ideas-id/DbRlo4M/
bookipedia idea was cuter though and another alternative service.

personally I like this Author Honors!

"Readers choose the setting, characters, time frame, symbolism, etc."
AKA http://www.wikibooks.org

"Your earlier comment referred to writers as "lazy" if they couldn't write a whole book, but in fact many good writers can't write because day-to-day necessities get in the way. It's not a matter of motivation, it's a matter of finances."
It sounds to me like they don't really want to be writers, they want to be bloggers or series story tellers. You know writers that sell there big story through a series of stories. People that write casually.

They can all ready write small portions and still make money from that. Via advertising or smaller payments. Whats so hard about taking your time to write one page a day or every other day thats 365-182pages in one year? Where is the major offset of funds from that ONE or 1/2 a page of work?

Wikibooks is about textbooks. We're talking novels.

I have seen wiki novels:
http://en.wikipedia....a:WikiProject_Novels

Not the same thing.

WIKI Novels is completely different than this idea...
"WikiProject Novels aims to define a standard of consistency for articles about novels and literary genres associated with fictional narratives. It also aims to encourage and provide the structure for enhancing the writing of high qualilty articles on all manner of different novels. For the purpose of this project "Novels" are deemed to include all works of narrative fiction that exhibit novel like structure, regardless of length and genre. (This includes full novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories.) It also aims to encourage and promote the writing of articles on all types of such Novels. (see "#Hierarchy Definition" for more details of what is in or out of scope.)"

I'd be curious Charon if the site charged a membership fee of say $20 a month and for that membership fee you received 2 "Sponsor Tokens" of which you could use to support an author of your choice. Would this be a loop hole to circumvent the SEC? It seems to me if you limit the investors under the specified amount 15 in this case to 1 investor (the site itself) the SEC would have no authority in this matter. This creates an issue for the books, but I think this would be in line with dblin vision for this site. From a marketing standpoint it could be more difficult, but if you use a CH type of Royalty program and the site itself is the publisher, so it could manage the royalty pay outs. Just an idea. I think this is a great idea, I just think that you should look for publishing partners and also away for film makers to be able to purchase licensing rights to a adapt a book to film. I think this cross marketing will add a lot more prospective members and readers.

Hi DTINGG,

A membership fee (Book Club)is an excellent idea, as it will allow Americans to participate legally from the beginning. If the project is a success and a combination of cash flow and business sense dictate, you