I really support this kind of niche product. I think if you have someone who really knows the domain leading software design you can have a successful product.

Are you thinking of shippable software [on cds] or a web based application? If your target market is younger and more tech savvy, the web based version might be a better way to go. I'll admit to having a web-centric bias.

Thanks Laura. The decision of CD's vs. Web based is still up for grabs at the moment although I lean towards the CD route. I lean in this direction only because of what I'm hearing from other beekeepers. Thanks for the input.

Ken

I would support it. I think that a CD version would be better than web based. That way you include the "old timers" in the mix.
Right KES?

That's what I'm hearing and tend to agree with so far Fyrman.

You might think about doing both the CD and web based versions. The app is the same, it is just the delivery system that is different. I think many people like myself are used to getting most of their software over the web and like that option better.

I love it. Niche product, firm need, desperate market that is growing. Sounds like a potential winner to me!

I would suggest doing the service entirely online myself, especially since you mention that the industry is getting more tech savvy. It would appeal to urban bee keepers ( yes they exist! ) and to rural hobbiests. It's getting harder and harder to find areas that are still on dial up, even in rural settings. Keeping in mind that some of the clients would be on dial up, I think that cyberdude's suggestion of doing both may be a good move.

I'd honestly start with a web app first. Cross platform, cross browser.

Have you started collecting any numbers to help you pitch this idea? IE: How many new beekeepers/beehives are in production each year? How have the sales of bee-related products grown/shrunk? What's the average age/demographic spread of new beekeepers?

As well, what -specficially- will this ap do that a regular spreadsheet can't? To me the obvious benifit is allowing charting of data for those who don't know how to set it up themselves, but I think the more detail you provide, the better luck you'll have with investors. What do you need to log for bees? How often the harvest is? How many bees you see? Amount of Honey? Current market prices? Inventory levels?

Rolling out both a web and a cd version is tricky in my view because what is quick, easy, cheap on the web is not necessarily the same for a desktop ap. Your developers may use different tools, languages, ect, and will have to worry about different problems (ie different operating systems vs different browsers).

Doing research on your target market has to be the best way to decide this. If you find that most beekeepers buy software rather than use web applications, or that they don't trust online sites to store their information, then a cd ap is the way to go.

Your choice on this is going to make a big difference in your startup costs as well: With a cd software, you need a distribution system. However, if you're already familiar with distributing product (ie honey/beeswax) this is probably less of a challenge than it would be for someone who's never had to ship anything.

A compromise to the web/cd problem could be to offer a downloadable version of the software on your website: then it's accessible for those who don't want to wait to use it. I've noticed a lot of companies that have shippable software use this method.

All excellent points Laura, I'll gather some figures and get back to you.

Another point about CD vs Web app; We're talking about people entering in information about their hives over a long period of time. If this is a web app, many will not have confidence in the longevity of a site. They will have poured hours into tracking their hives and will want a way to ensure that the site won't disappear one day with all their records.

I think that is a great Idea. As a fellow beekeeper and being in my mid 30s as well as female I have been looking for a user friendly easy software for beekeeping. The other out there are lame and not cheap and there is no longer any support and they dont have the options we need. You can not print out reports on just one hive. Or print out or set reminders for certain things you need to do with what hive. Would also like to track life progress of the hive the amount of honey produced what and when stuff was fed. what meds were given when. What was done at each inspection and what you found out and what needs to be done when and if you need to set reminders for that hive you can do so then. I have been thinking about this for a while now and I have so many ideas for this software. I am on the bee forum you are on and where you had posted the link. You should do a poll on bee source as well as beemaster and the organic beekeeping sites and see what others would like. There is still alot of dial up out there. Allot of customers if they want high speed internet they have to get it via satlite which is expensave. As I live in the middle of california and the big phone companies are so cheap they said that putting line out in the boonies of the counties it not in there long term plans and do not look for it in the next 20 years. Phone lines out here also suck so you can hardly download an easy cartoon clip let alone software. I would say do it on cd or flash drices there you can have the software as well as save your info right onto the memory stick and take it with you anywhere in the world. Say you are a sideliner and you are doing pollination you can take your stick with your laptop and software and all of your saved info and start working from anywhere and from any computer just a few ideas. If you want to chat I am Angi_H on all of the bee forums pm me if you would like. I think you would be able to do allot of sales.

With bees dying out in Europe this indeed might be a niche market. I love bees but the people who keep them tend to be a bit traditional. On the other hand newcomers might love this kind of technology.
Of course you can use Excel and word...

I think the importance of the web app on this one is sharing information. You can use it to help build statistic models and meta data structures that your beekeeper community can use to help deal with the problems they are having. If everything is just seperated to individuals a lot of the magic with this starts to fade if you ask me.

Bees are astronomically important to the lifecycle of the agriculture sector, especially fruit growers. Having them die out en mass is a bad bad thing.

Though it does sound like the market is web-app averse, due to technology understanding and technology limitiations. ( IE: Dialup ).

Thanks guys for the comments, they're always appreciated. True, the beek community tends to lean a bit more traditional. My goal is to design something that will include them, but will most likely be more useful to someone who understands how to organize and form the information.

I like Laura's idea of a downloadable version. Let's not forget that beekeepers might be a niche market, but they're all over the world and that makes them a global niche market. It would be easier to reach them (and cheaper) if they could log in and download the program. It would also give us the central location for meta data development.

I'm having a difficult time finding some good stats on registered beekeepers and hives.....still working on that one.

Scoobie: If you are having a hard time finding stats, make the stats part of the product, and then sell them. You can have the stats on you beekeepers in a big ole database that you sell to companies that market/sell beekeeper stuff. I don't mean email addresses and personal info, I mean stats on where beekeepers are, what problems they are having, what things they are doing, needs they have, locations, growth rates of the industry, etc. That information is GOLD.

I really like this idea. Niche software products are very attractive. And I've always like the appeal of cottage industries like beekeeping.

I think the discussion of client-side app versus web app is an important start. For a web app, the benefits are: easier to implement a subscription-based business model, easier to evolve the product and add new features on the fly (especially important for a startup that may want to release a beta early but continue to polish), and much easier deployment because cross-browser issues are much less painful than cross-OS or even Vista vs. XP issues. I think the biggest downside of a web app is the longevity issue you mentioned above.

For a client-side installed app, the big downside is deployment. I've been involved in both kinds of projects and I absolutely hate all the little problems that arise in client-side deployments. It also means you have to spend a lot more time testing before you "go gold" (burn distro CDs) because you can't tweak and fix later like you can with a web app. Yes, there are good client-side update capabilities, but nothing as easy as rolling out changes to a web app. Of course you could do a client-side app using something like Microsoft's ClickOnce deployment that provides a built-in model for updating. This could give you the best of both worlds.

Have you done a basic software requirements doc, outlining the basic features you'd want in version 1?

Thanks for joining us Micco. What about a downloadable .exe file and forget about CD's. We could create the best of both worlds, so to speak. Create a site that hosts the client-side app where people can download and always be able to keep it updated with the newest version. The site would also allow us the opportunity to foster a community and begin to collect the relative information that daraddishman was talking about in his last post.

Yes, I have a pretty good top-level idea of what the program needs to do and the features it should have.

A downloadable EXE is certainly better than CDs. Very few software companies distribute on CD anymore. However, whether it's a download or a CD, you still have all the deployment problems inherent in a client-side application such as version conflicts, the classic DLL hell, conflicts with other apps, etc. For something simple like this which doesn't have to interact with other apps on the user's computer, those issues might be minimal but they can't be discounted and you should make sure you have a good solid test period on a wide variety of systems before you start rolling out to potential customers.

I think Micco has a good point here. But it sounds like you have access to a couple of active communities, and you wouldn't have trouble attracting alpha and beta testers.

You might be able to come up with a hybrid concept: the main software is a downloadable exe, but you could perhaps tie it into a website through the ability to upload some of the data to a website to allow comparisions and mass analysis. So you have all the functionality in the download, but some sort of extra functions that are available through the website.

I don't know enough about beekeeping to know if there are features that would be able to be split this way, but I would think you'd want some sort of space for tech support and discussion if nothing else.

You're obviously going to get a ton of suggestions for features, and I think you'll have a big job prioritizing them, but in the end I would think you need to come up with a 'feature set for launch' and 'future features list' to fill in your business plan for investors.

Hello again Laura. I've been playing with the idea of the hybrid concept for a few days now and I'm really beginning to like it. It would allow for quick updates and fixes and provide a central location for, like you said, tech support and forums.

The base set of features is pretty much set, but I won't bore you with things like varroa mite count and things of the sort. ;-) The gathering of mass data will have to be secondary. I really want to focus on bringing a quality set of tools to start with since the market basically has none.

This is software so there are two words I am looking for: design documentation? What exact feature specifications do you have and outline all parts and how they work.

I have that, sort of. Since I don't know anything about writing design docs, it's basically a list of tasks I want the software to perform.

The basics something like this: (option for standard or metric)

Chose Apiairy (the location where hives are kept)
Choose Hive (By number or name)
Hive information page contains info: Name, Hive Type, Bee Race, Hive inception, Hive history, Queen origin, Marked/Unmarked, Clipped/Unclipped, Queen lineage (Queen mother, Queen grandmother, Raised, Supercedure.

Hive Inspection:
Weather conditions, Behavior, Supers (Deeps, Mediums, Shallows), Honey weight, Frames, Brood (eggs, larve and capped brood), Pollen, Honey, Pests, Medications, Feeding yes/no, feeding what, amount of food taken, Queen seen, Queen condition, Access to Queen lineage page, Journal (this needs to have the ability to review easily and be able to print out a range of past notes) and complete information on honey harvest

Customizable reports and/or graphs
Task Manager
Schedule reminders.
Hive/tools inventory

Scoobie, I'd suggest trying to create some mockups of several screens, such as entry screens, graphs/charts, task manager. A flow chart of screen to screen might be useful as well. It doesn't have to be a perfect user interface, but it should help flush out exactly what you need the software to do, and if you end up hiring someone to write out a specific design document, they'll have a good source to work from. If you're not a programmer or software engineer, you'll be hiring one at some point., and they can flush things out for you more, but the clearer you can make your vision to them and your potential investors, the smoother the process can go.

I'm not sure how software company investment/creation cycles happen, but I would start thinking of some of the bigger questions: how do I determine a.) what I'm going to create b.) what resources I need c.) how much will it cost and d.) what time line do I want to achieve this in.

That should let you start flushing out your pitch to investors, and also elict some more feedback for you.

That's a great start Scoobie. The next step would be describing what each of those data fields looks like. For example, something like "Hive Name" would be a text field of a certain length. Would a question like Hive Type and Bee Race be text inputs or dropdowns (dropdowns providing better usability if you can anticipate all possible inputs). Would things like Queen lineage be structured data or just a longer text input?

I really like paper prototyping for this stage of a project. On paper, you can sketch out what each of the screens should look like and how they link together. Doing this on paper is quicker than doing it in some graphical tool and allows you to easily change things, but it also allows you to think through the details of how all this would work together and find gaps that you might not have noticed until you see it in front of you.

This step doesn't necessarily nail down the GUI design so don't think of it as necessarily designing the final look and feel. It does provide an overview of the workflow of the app and starts to define the basic data structures. A lot of programmers start at the database and workflow level and work up toward a GUI, but for more general users, it's usually easier to start at the GUI where they can imagine how they'd interact with the app and then build downward from there to data design.

So, just to be clear, I didn't actually copy Laura word for word. I must just type more slowly.

I think you made similar but not identical points. But I didn't mention paper prototyping, so hat tip for micco!

Micco & Laura, you guys are great, thanks for the input.

Micco, I'm glad you mentioned paper prototyping because this is all my skillset will allow. I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum from a programmer. I'm your typical end-user, I can use it but I can't make it. With that said, I'll get to work trying to lay out my visions for the program.

Laura, the issue of investors is a little easier for me, I'm sold on the idea of the program and understand the urgent need for a higher level of record keeping for the hobbyiest beekeeper. I also under understand the overwhelming lack of competition. This is something I can sell. However, I'm at a loss for determining how much such a venture would cost. Development, hosting, distribution, maintenance and support...... having no background here, I'm not even sure how to estimate that.

Well, that's where your initial list of resources comes in:

What kind of business are you going to run and what fees are involved [small business license, corporation]

Do you need offices? Or is this a home business? [Rent, utilities, parking, furniture, phone line]
How many employees/services will you need (ei, at least one programmer, an accountant, a lawyer, shipping system, beta/alpha testers/quality control, tech support) Are you planning to hire full time/part time people, use contract workers on a per project basis? How often you plan to release upgrades and revisions will affect this answer.

What other expenses will the business require? Logo design? Business cards, Website design, advertising, domain name? Do you plan to promote it a beekeeping conferences [travel + hotel expenses]?

How are you taking payments? What does your payment processing service cost? What countries do you want to accept payments from?

What are your monthly expenses? What are your one time expenses? What are your yearly expenses?

For the hosting, it's going to depend on the website - a static brochure site is going to require less resources than a site that has recurring users uploading data and viewing a lot of pages. Hosting is easy to upgrade though, and I personally count good technical support and reliability worth extra cost.

Also consider what this is going to cost you in TIME. If you only have 10 hours a week to devote to this project, what does that allow you to accomplish? If you are giving up your day job for this, what does that allow and require?

How fast do you want to get to market? Once you get to market, how will the time requirements of the business change? Before launch, you don't have any customer service/tech support issues, for example.

Once you can break down all your requirements, you can start researching salary ranges, and design quotes, cost for physical items, etcetera, and start getting putting together some estimations.

I'd also see if there are any grants or programs for entrepreneurs in your area. Even if you don't qualify for them, finding out what information they are asking for or what steps they expect you to have taken can be valuable. They may also offer resources and workshops and know about the specific regulations that govern your area.

What can I say Laura, you're just awesome. Thank you. :-)

I find it funny that there are comments about BeeKeepers being Technophobes, or Backwards.
I rely on the internet for everything from my Equipment to diagnosing Diseases in my Bees. I personally run the Network Operations Center of an Internet Access Reseller that owns over 200 ISPs nationwide and in Canada.
The stereotype of the old guy Beekeeper is a myth. My ten year old son has hives I can guarantee you he'll kick your Butt at HALO.

My experience with Beekeeping software is that it tends to not be all encompassing enough, for example, For me it would be imperative that I Bee able to track the lineage of my Queens.

Scoobie, judging from what everyone is saying you have a really solid idea. Whether or not you win this round in the ideawarz, I think you should set up a business on CH. That will get you access to a wiki and some organization tools that will help you with your design documentation, business model/plan writing, ect.

I am totally in for helping you out with any documentation you need to write. I've done a number of design docs for web apps and video games, and I've written a couple business plans and know a bunch of business models.

Let me know if you need a sample design doc, I have a bunch floating around.

I think this is a great idea. It will definitely meet the need of the average beekeeper. And if the end cost is around $50, they will easily be able to afford it. And frankly, couldn't afford to do without it since it will greatly benefit their outcome if used consistently. Sounds like a "honey of a deal" to me. hee. hee.

I agree that you should have the option to download the software since everyone loves instant results. I also agree that your market is worldwide. Way to go Scoobie. Good idea!

Scoobie, let me know if you need help with some of the initial design work. I have messed with it in the past.

It addresses the global ccd problem and beekeepers' problems. Great idea!

Your initial description of functions sounded like programing in a spreadsheet (or database) might suffice. Will it be a $50 program, or could it be offered for less ($15-$20?)? I am naive about the specifics, so no worries if it is a $50 program.

I like downloading programs and using them successfully offline before considering joining a network to share data.

You will be a winner, I think. This is the kind of idea that works. It's focused, it's niched, it's simple, it doesn't aim to make a lot of money just help, and you know what you're talking about. Bingo.

By the way, are you experiencing Bee Hive Collapse Syndrome (or whatever it's called)?

BeeWare is a great name. The logo needs work -- doesn't express your concept.

Scoobie, you mentioned earlier that you were having trouble finding stats on bee keepers. Is there any way you can estimate the market? Are there industry associations that would give you membership counts or industry magazines that would give subscriber counts? Obviously anything like that would be reluctant to disclose full subscriber lists, but it seems like they should be willing to brag about the raw numbers.

I'd be interested to see some sort of preliminary business plan estimates of potential market. This idea really appeals to me because it's an interesting niche and focused enough to be do-able, and I'd be willing to write code for it. But before I'd invest time, I'd want to know at least the potential upside. If this is a destined to be a little shareware app that sells 100 copies, we've already spent more time than that's worth, but if there's a potential to sell 10K or 100K copies, it might be worthwhile. This will also figure heavily in the business model you want to adopt. If your rosy upside is selling 10K copies at best, you either need to sell them for a lot of money or you need some kind of subscription model where you get a little money every year in order to make it worthwhile. If you can sell 100K or more, then the price per copy you need to make it worthwhile comes down. Obviously this is a niche market so you're never going to have millions of users, but it would be good to put an initial order of magnitude estimate on what the market could look like.

Another thing to consider is how you could diversify horizontally into other niches. Could the underlying code be built fairly generic and then have modules for bees, goats, cattle, etc.? It seems like the basic things you want to track (lineage, feed, meds, etc.) apply to all sorts of livestock. Maybe the real business model here should be to build an "agricultural Quicken" with the initial prototype focused on bees.

That's an interesting take Micco, I hadn't given much thought to creating a horizontal product. I'll put some more thought in to that but my first focus has to be the bees.

I'm right in the middle of searching for beekeeper stats. It's not nearly as easy as I thought. I get more info on things like the number of hives (2.4 million producing colonies in the US in 2007) as opposed to number of beekeepers (our users). I still can't find any stats for other countries and in order to reach the numbers we're looking for, I think we'll have to offer this in several different countries.

It might be worth while to put up a market test site on this to help gather numbers, as described here: http://www.cambrianh...orks/crowds-test-it/

Scoobie, are you familiar with any of the industry magazines like beeculture.com? If there are magazines that are ad supported, they should be willing to give you subscriber numbers. Just tell them you are considering advertising a product to their subscribers (which is true, just not immediately) and they should share all kinds of stats to justify their ad rates.

There's a few seemingly-similar products online:
http://www.beecare.c...vices/Technology.htm
http://www.dpi.nsw.g...ement/tools/software
http://www.xenacom.com/xap_overview.aspx
http://www.chrixon.c...BeeFiles/default.htm

At some point, you'll want to compare/contrast with these so you can describe how you'll differentiate from competitors. You'll also need to estimate how much of the potential market is already served by these types of products because it will be much harder to market to people switching from an existing product to people upgrading from paper records.

Micco, I'm a subscriber to BeeCulture which seems to be the industry standard for journals. They have a circulation of about 12,000.

Links:

The "Beecare Professional" product is in development and seems to be in the "research" phase.

The next link is for some called "Honey Money" and is an Excel spread sheet for tracking the honey cost of production. It's not hive management software.

Xenacom offers a very high end product that ranges from $900 usd to $20,000. They do offer a Hobby version for 200 or less hives but it's $300, way too much for the hobbyist beekeeper. The don't offer any information on the Hobbyist app other than a few basic tasks. It's fairly new but it doesn't seem to support Vista (no mac) Also, when I tried to call the company, the phone has been disconnected.

The Chrixon product looks to be the closest concept to what I have in mind. I downloaded the product and tried it out for a few weeks but quickly found out that it's not very interactive and most of all, it has no note taking ability. This is simply a must-have in the app. A couple of weeks ago I had a question about the program so I sent off a note via their comments page. A few days later, when I had heard nothing back, I used their email address and it bounced back within seconds. It seems that they've closed up shop, even though the product still for sale. The price for the Hobby product was just over $100 usd and $325 for their professional product. They list some resellers but I couldn't find the product on any of their sites.

As far as I can see, strong, well supported, economical beekeeping software doesn't exist.
____________________

@Laura: I'm planning on the test site but I want to finish my financial research first.

@Landksy: That's not the logo, I just placed it there so I would have a pic during the voting round. I don't have a logo yet. Ideas?? Also, to answer your earlier question; no I haven't had any CCD, but another local beek has.

@fyrman: Let's talk about some basics. I'll email you.

@Micco: You've got Bmail

@Everyone: Thanks for all the insight, feedback and offers to help. I'm up to my eyeballs trying to advance this project and complete the proper due diligence. If you have an interest in working on this project, please let me know.

Thanks again,

Scoob

How do you currently track your bees? A custom spreadsheet? I don't know how much info you're willing to expose at present, but you could upload that as a Google Document and give a people look at some real data.

If you're saying people PRESENTLY use their own spreadsheets, and everyone creating their own as they go along, perhaps the simplest first step, is to create a spreadsheet template of your own and sell it. That would turn this strictly into a marketing exercise, but its would be handy for establishing a web presence and gathering your own marketing data to help justify the creation of a full-blown app.

I've always kept paper records, until just recently. I designed a spreadsheet and have a couple of records in it from the last two or three inspections. I've only done this for two hive, kind of as a test run. Also, the things I track are minimal and I haven't elaborated on it at all. It's very basic, but could be expanded.

Someone tell me how to load it up to Google Docs and I'll share it tonight.

Another thought, why would anyone buy spreadsheet template when they are so easy to design or they already have one? I don't think it would give us a good indication of interest or need. What I'm trying to create is something better than a simple spreadsheet.

I don't know about the current market, but back in the 90's a lot of people were willing to buy spreadsheet templates. I worked with and built several templates that had extensive calculations built in, and even though anyone could build their own, they often didn't have the expertise to create those calculations. But those were speadsheets related to power plant productivity and efficiency and other heavy-math issues.

It seems like this project doesn't involve much actual math or behind-the-scenes calculation. It's more about just storing data, so a spreadsheet template would be little more than a column and row formatting with not background math. I agree that most people wouldn't pay much for that.

Just looking at your numbers above, if there are 12,000 people willing to subscribe to an industry magazine, do you think that is an indication of your market size? Or are there a lot more beekeepers than that out there who are willing to spend money on tech?

If the total market is on the order of 10K people and you sold to every one of them at $50 each, your very best outcome is $500K, which isn't much to spread around to a development and marketing team. It might make a nice second business for a couple of people. On the other hand, if the market is substantially bigger, or if there's a large overseas market, or if you could easily extend the product horizontally to other markets, it might make more sense.

I think you already have the most important thing in a project like this - insider knowledge and a good appreciation of what's needed and (more importantly) wanted.

On the CD/online/download argument, I agree that offering it predominantly as a download is probably the best choice. The program itself shouldn't bee too big so downloading shouldn't bee a problem for any broadband users. There's nothing to stop you offering to post out CDs at a slight premium though - makes you a little more accessible to more traditional types and shouldn't bee difficult to do.

I'll leave the software design and implementation side of things to the more experienced developers on here, but I will say that not being a programmer yourself could bee an advantage. Make sure what you end up is what you/beekeepers want instead of what comes naturally to an experience programmer. I'm sure this is what micco and Laura are getting at with the paper design work.

Good morning everyone.

Micco, I agree, and was a little shocked myself by the 12k number. Of the 12,000 subscribers, only 400 of them were international. That was also a surprise.

I have some emails out to people who should know about numbers of beekeepers. I've heard 2 million in the US (down from 5 million back in the 50's) but can't back it up yet. Another thing to remember is that any number we get will account for registered beekeepers and I have a feeling that there is a pretty good chunk of beekeepers who do not bother to register with their state. Just a thought.

Micco, I have to say that $500k sounds like an awful lot of money to me, but I understand your point.

@PhillipH: Thanks for your insight. Very appreciated.

O/T Some of you may have heard about the earthquake in Illinois this morning. I'm located just a few miles from the epicenter. It knocked some things off the mantle and walls but otherwise wasn't too bad. It's my first quake and was a bit on the spooky side to say the least. After the initial quake was over, the house continued to vibrate for at least another minuet or so. Kind of like a purring kitten. If anything, I can tell you exactly what time I woke up this morning! 4:37am CST on the dot!

Scoob

p.s. Wow! Just had an aftershock as I was writing this. (10:14am)

Scoobie, $500k is an awful lot of money for one or two people to split up. If the team is more like 5-6 (developer, marketing, sales, etc.) and the sales are spread over several years, then it's still a nice bonus but not a great day job. I guess my main point was that it's a good small-team project but not the kind of deal where you'd get (or necessarily need) a big venture capital investment since there's not huge upside to interest an investor.

And PhilipH makes a great point that your insider knowledge and lack of development skills make you perfectly suited to lead the project. Speaking as a developer, we tend to design things in ways that are easy to implement and easy to generalize and that's not necessarily the best solution to the problem. Initial design needs to focus on meeting the user needs without even considering how they'd be implemented.

Enjoy your aftershocks... the news said no one's been hurt, so it's just a big free carnival ride.

I wonder whether there's a name idea with the word 'hive' in it... 'Hive Mind'?

I first met the non-developer's advantage a while back when I reduced a friend's code by about 50 lines in five minutes using a pencil, the back of an envelope and some very simple maths. Since then I've been amazed several times by the way programmers tend to want to jump in and try and code complicated solutions without just thinking problems through first.

For the record, I experienced my first proper earthquake about a month and a half ago. They're very rare here in the UK, so I was a bit shocked at first as well!

that is why this would make a good niche web application, your development and upkeep costs would be fairly low. I would also consider making it subscription based rather than a straight shot sale.

I would do something like:
Up to 10 hive tracking - FREE!
Up to 100 hive tracking - only $1.99/month!
Unlimited Hive Tracking - only $4.99/month!

If you do the math on that, even at small numbers you have a nice home software business that can support you and a developer, and the occasional contractor.

As to names: HiveIT!, Hive5, HiveFive, BeesKnees, Bee Keeper Two Thousand... AND ONE!

I would have to give some serious thought to the subscription idea. Also, I don't see giving much of anything away for free because a large chunk of hobbyiest beekeepers have ten hives or less. Many also have five or less. The only freebie I imagined was a 30 day free trial before purchase.

If it's a web app, would the beekeeper still be able to query their DB for specific information?

I dig the names though daraddishman. Hive5 is kinda cool.

Scoobie: The point is to build a good solid community right? Nothing gets people involved like free stuff. Your want the barrier to entry and usage as low as possible. I suppose you could do a minimum subscription price of $0.99... but at that price you'll be barely breaking even on the service fees from Visa/MC/Paypal ( you'll make about $0.40 per transaction, the rest will service charge. ) You could do unlimited free trial for 1 hive, then $1.99 for up to 10, $4.99 for unlimited, per month.

And yes, you can query a DB through a web app, that's largely all a web application does. Query a DB and pull the information in a manner the user is needing. It is all in your interface and workflow. As someone who works with bees, you'll know what sort of information is relevant to you, what you need to do to track it, and your design team can figure out the best way to interact with that data.

I'm not sure what my hang-up is about this being a webapp vs. a downloadable. I'm going to have to test this in some bee forums for some more insight.

Also, I just heard back from Kim Flottum, efitor of Bee Culture Magazine and author of "The Backyard Bee Keeper". I emailed him about the numbers of beekeepers and he replied with this:

"Hi, There are about 90,000 beekeepers in the U.S. About 85,000 hobby beekeepers, 5000 sideliners and just under a 1000 commercial beekeepers. I have no data on international numbers, sorry."

Now I need to figure out a way to determine international numbers.

I think a short trial would be best.

Scoobie: I would do a ballpark extrapolation based on per-capita. At 90,000 it's a pretty small customer base, but if you can get into the market space with something easy and compelling you could do well, and then spread out to other countries. Digital distro makes that easy peasey.

So, that is 0.0003% of Americans are beekeepers of some sort. So, if you extrapolate out into the UK, you'd have another... 30-35,000...

Don't be worried too much about the small market numbers, I don't think this is going to be a super expensive build. I can sort of visualize the site and interface. I'm using collecable tracking as my base point of reference, and sort of blurring it over for tracking bees, queens, and lineage.

I don't know how well my blurry vision fits, since, like, I don't know enough about bee keeping... since, like, bees scare me.

interesting

where is the source information for the number of bee keepers? gov?

Nice niche idea.

I would agree with the subscription model being the best option, keep it low, go for long term ongoing revenue.

Make it online, aggregate stats, provide basic data for free, a premium for detail - this will be a scientific resource.

As for online/ off line, It must be both. Build it to interface with Google gears or Adobe air to add off line ability. You should also then gain the aqbility to move to mobile phones for data input while out at the hives as these platforms have mobile development paths. (This will help international penetration. They US lags on mobile, but will catch up.)

after thought...

Going online would let you mash in data gor GIS functions, weather recordtracking, pollen counts etc.

Excellent idea. I'm getting into beekeeping myself and the paper and pen idea is not attractive.

An excellent niche software program! I have been programming for 25 years now and Ive written hundreds of programs, but never thought about beekeeping software.

If you need help in developing this, let me know.

Scoobie, it would be great if you could do a market survey to see how beekeepers felt about online versus client-side apps. Web 2.0 is all about online apps and I certainly prefer that for ease of development and deployment. It also makes the revenue models easier since you control a login on the web app and can enforce a subscription.

On the other hand, a lot of people may not like the idea of keeping this data online. As much as I like web 2.0 apps, I wouldn't use an online version of quicken for my finances and I prefer client-side email apps to webmail because it gives me more control and backup options. If people are going to spend a lot of time putting data into this app, they'll want to trust that they can access that data forever (give or take a few years). It's hard for a startup to install that kind of trust in a web app but if you sell/license a desktop app, the company can fail and disappear but the software keeps working.

There are all kinds of options for hybrid solutions. There could be a low-cost online app and a higher-priced desktop version (but that requires a lot of duplicate development). There could be a basic desktop app for data entry, storage and reports but some premium features might be available online. Or a desktop app can require a periodic "phone home" to enforce subscription models and allow certain features. The permutations are endless, but at some point you need to decide that version one will either be desktop or online, and I think that is primarily a marketing decision.

Scoobie, if you have a gmail account, then {Documents} is one of the options at the top of the gmail interface. You can {Upload} pretty much any spreadsheet. Might lose formatting and what-not (like macros) but if its basic it'll still be functional. Of course you'd want to alter any data you don't want to expose.

The click the {Share} tab at the top right, and you can select {X} Anyone can view this document, and you'll be shown a URL such as...

spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=paFI439jxGS264HmAyAGYag&hl=en

"Why would anyone buy spreadsheet template when they are so easy to design or they already have one? ... What I'm trying to create is something better than a simple spreadsheet."

Well I think you might be surprised how intimidated some people might be by a simple spreadsheet app. Really, I don't think you would see much in way of sales of such a spreadsheet, but by offering one for free you'll start pulling in traffic and links.

Google: beekeeper spreadsheet
...and your biz is the 2nd link (first HTML one).

I'm not really recommending this approach so much as suggesting it, and seeing if you're interested in a non-build-the-software-first approach. 2 things of value that are easy to offer in that approach are spreadsheet templates and possibly hosting a forum (forums exist for beekeeping, but having people be able to discuss the spreadsheet between themselves will save you lots of support time).

Allan, I think "making it online" for an app might be impractical since until Google Gears is refined having an online/offline app will be very tricky to write. Easier to make it offline so that WiFi connectivity isn't required if beekeeper wants to walk around with his laptop from hive to hive. (Scoobie, is that a realistic concern?)

Unless... (sorry for the random tangents)... you could write an app specifically for a mobile device. Say a Moto Q, Blackberry or Android Handset. So your offerings could look like this...

- Free spreadsheet
- Free online community (talk about beekeeping + spreadsheet)
- $ Mobile App for particular mobile (very expensive to subscribe)
- Online community subset to discuss the app, which you only gain access to by paying subscription fees for the software

So the app isn't SOLD, its SUBSCRIBED to. This is a better model as it reduces piracy as you can then tie the app's use to its online support. Perhaps it allows you to upload data to a server. If its a mobile app, then it'll work anywhere and this isn't a prob. Plus a mobile can have built in GPS, where a laptop would require an external GPS device. And mobiles can leverage cell tower GUIDs (like Google does for Google maps).

The mobile app COULD be a simple data entry tool and offer just what is needed as keepers move from hive to hive. Then the data collected could be downloaded from the website, and offered in a more powerful web-app. So ordering and planning could be done with a proper keyboard and monitor.

There might be some B2B possibilities at this point.

And there should always be an option to export data. This should allay fears of your site doing down taking down any participating beekeepers.

So in a nutshell, I suggest you offer some free services to draw people in, and a single high-end product you can continually pitch on your website.

(Yes is the course of this post I went from slagging web-app approach, to suggesting the tool be part mobile data entry, part web-app data retrieval.)

Morning everyone.

Okay, a poll has been posted on two different beekeeping forums. This should be very interesting, I'm excited to see what they think. If you would like to follow them, here are the links.

Beemaster: http://forum.beemast...ex.php?topic=14620.0

Beesource: http://beesource.com...wthread.php?t=218068

GordonMcDowell,

I've uploaded the Hive log, that I'm testing for myself. It's new and only has a few entries so you'll find it to be very basic.

http://spreadsheets....T-Oz-a7VA&hl=en

As for your other comments (whew...that's a lot!) :-) There are a few reasons that designing this to be utilized with some kind of mobile add-on. First off, everything (and I really mean everything) we do in the field involves a certainly amount of "sticky". It tends to get on everything and shelling out a few hundred bones for a cool device (of any kind) only to get is covered in honey, wax, and propolis would not be a good thing. If we really need an "in the field" option, I would suggest also creating a "paper form" of some kind that we could make notes on then come back and enter them in to the app.

Personally, I would vote for something that was completely online with an option to export the data for backup. It would foster a community and allow for easier development and future upgrades.

Well Gordon, as soon as I said it was too sticky in the field, it seems like that might not apply to everyone. Two people on one of the forums and looking for bar coding abilities:

"It would be nice to swipe a barcode in the field....then log into the net via a laptop and send the files back to be read by any PC back at the office.

If during inspection you found you were needing to replace 10 frames, 2 hives are queenless, 3 hives have failing queen, this hive needs fed, or anything like that can be entered in the field. A summary can be printed back at the office. Then a list by yard of materials can be printed or a list of work needed in that yard. You could even get down to how long it should take to complete all the tasks for each yard for time organization. If it does inventory you could know in the field what you have back at the shop and if you need to call your supplier while heading back to the office."

I have wanted to barcode my hives for like...forever. If it was added on as an option, that would be cool. I am also a small time queen breeder, and I run alot of small mating nucs. Information on those would include items such as dated celled, breed of cell, hatch date, expected mating date, date picked...ect. Barcodes just seem like the easiest way to access and track the amount of information each hive/mating nuc would generate. Thanks to all for your time developing this program, I for one thank you for that..

Jim

Scoobie, ok that spreadsheet certainly gives an idea of what you're tracking as you maintain the hives.

When you say "sticky in the field", does that mean beekeepers just walk around with pad and pencil? (Probably with printed forms, but basically record everything on paper?)

Are you wearing big white suits and wearing gloves? And basically look like something out of a sci-fi movie like this guy?
http://www.kyagr.com...7/images/HAS4Web.gif

Or are beekeepers usually less dressed and could conceivably use a keypad like this guy?
http://www.albaniabr...00x600/beekeeper.jpg

And also, I know this is a BIT far out there, but if we're just trying to record information as we go, could we record audio which is transcribed on the fly? Not really my area, but while I assume a numeric keypad could be relatively cheap (bluetooth) but it would only allow for numeric entry. If you need to record "oh the queen looks a little haggard" then the only 3 options I see are:
- Writing it down pen-and-paper.
- Typing it into a keyboard... PDA impossible wearing gloves.
- Dictating it.

...And if we wanted to explore dictation, how noisy are those bees or wind? Have you or do you know anyone who's ever tried using voice recognition while maintaining hives?

I'm trying to envision an "ultimate" hardware kit, and I guess it would include:
- Bluetooth headset (can go inside your helmet).
- Bluetooth barcode reader.
- PDA you don't actually have to type on but need to monitor screen.

That way the PDA could be wrapped in some safety case so it doesn't get too gooped.

Gordon, from the beekeepers I know, we go out and inspect the hives then come back in and record out findings either on the computer or in a notebook.

Yes, we all wear some kind of protective gear. Many wear the full suit and some of us just wear jackets. Most wear gloves but there are some who work without them.

As for dictating, while I find this very interesting, I think it moves outside the scope of my initial goal..... to provide a cheap, efficient and comprehensive software solution for hive maintenance.

On a side note, I'm aware of a PDA used in the Ag industry that can get completely dirty or soaked and you can clean it by holding it under the kitchen faucet and clean it off. Could work nicely.

I think a Java application is your best bet.

I agree, a Java/Hibernate application with a mSQL DB, could go PosGres.

I think it's premature to discuss language/framework when it hasn't even been completely settled whether it should be a web app or clientside. I think (hope) the polls Scoobie posted on the beekeeping sites will provide market data to make that decision.

I'm a big fan of Java, but it has a lot of downsides too and I don't see anything here that couldn't be done in half a dozen frameworks. The time to pick that is after the initial architecture is scoped out so you can choose based on what best fits the app requirements, not what's your personal fav.

Scoobie,

Ok I guess my questions revolve around trying to bring as much functionality to the hive as possible which might not be worth the effort. It appears most open-ended voice recognition for PDAs happens when they sync with a PC, then a bigger app like Dragon Naturally Speaking parses the recorded audio.

For example, "Microsoft Voice Command" can be used on my Moto Q to control calendar, media player and launch apps. But I see no indication it can be used within custom apps.

So the upside to a mobile app would have been:
- Only collect data once.
- Use mobile's data services to immediately send collected info to the website. Mobile could depend on connectivity in a way laptop app might not (no WiFi by hive).

But the downsides were:
- Many platforms (Java vs Blackberry vs Android vs .NET).
- Tiny keyboard can't be used with gloves, difficult for fast data entry.

...

So sticking to desktop/laptop apps then, I'd suggest despite the small data set on the beehive forum favoring offline apps, that perhaps an online application be used to collect all the data but the export process be tied into how the data is used in any practical fashion.

For example, if a day's to-do list needs to be printed in hard-copy, then perhaps it could be downloaded in spreadsheet form. That export could have a series of optoins...

Export:
{X} Maintenance tasks.
{X} Needed supplies.
{ } Summary of yesterday activity.
{ } Complete archive of logged data.

If they check the archive option, then the spreadsheet is sent with another tab containing all data.

That way, so long as the spreadsheet export can be achieved, we have also met any needs of the user to export data out of our system.

---

I'm looking back on your thoughts about distribution on CDs. I can't stand 'em (compared to web apps) because improvements can't simply be downloaded or used immediately (online app).

And the only complete guarantee against piracy is building an online app. CDs or downloadable apps will be copied or cracked and copied.

---

Could you start mapping out daily processes you perform? Looking at your sample data its clear what you are recording, but not how you will be responding to it (or how an app will prompt user to respond).

Your April 15, 2008, 9:22 am post indicates everything you'd want to track and report on, but not how the app would function beyond being a spreadsheet with graphs. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

I way Java only because it would be easy to port for use on mobile, desktop and online app. But, I guess I agree it was premature to discuss language/framework when the basic things have not been completely worked out.

I would stick with off line apps since it would be hard to use the program in the field. But, you could have it so data is sent online to a server to be stored.

Reasons to laptop app it in the field:
- Bar code readers.
- GPS tagging (unlikely but possible).
- Possible to only enter data 1x, live, at the hive.

Reasons not to use laptop it in the field:
- Muckyness.
- Online app would probably require mobile data card.

Angi_H, do farmers (who can't receive hi-speed internet wherever they are) have digital phones which surf the internet? Because if so, a cellular data card could be used in a laptop, and access a net connection anywhere a mobile phone could. Data charges might be comparable to satellite though.

I think you have the right workings of a good idea. A niche market, a problem that is solved instead of creating a problem to be solved.

As far as specifics some "market research" will help you determine what will fill the need the best.

You have the framework for something good here!

Congratulations, you have demonstrated that you know the Bee keeping business. With the help of CH and a little bit of financing the rest should be easy.

If I may suggest.

Given the current problems with depleting Bee populations and its effect on pollination. It would appear that one solution and perhaps even a necessity shall be for farmers to keep and maintain a few hives.

I have found that unless one has grown up with Bees, that most people have an irrational fear of Bees; and know even less about handling Bees; especially during the swarming season.

Perhaps you would consider including a section on Bee handling for the novice. e.g. How to approach open and extract the combs from the hives. how to capture and return errant Queens and their swarms to new hives etc.

There is not real benefit from having this app online. Are there any benefits at all that help the customer?

Kevin, I think the one big benefit to the customer of an online app is that it facilitates a business model (subscription, piracy control) that allows Scoobie's company to stay in business and serve the customer. You're absolutely correct that an online app can't provide the user with any functionality that an offline app couldn't do and many users might be more comfortable with offline. But I think the benefits to the user of offline might be balanced by the benefits to the company of online.

Ease of deploying changes in an online app is a huge benefit, but those can be accomplished to some extent in client-side apps too. I'm using .NET ClickOnce for an app deployment now and it works very well. I've used Java WebStart with some success but it's an enormous deployment problem for naive users because you have to guide them through installing the framework in the first place before you can get the "seamless" benefits of WebStart. WebStart works really well for everything past the first install.

Regarding both the online/offline discussion and the benefit of having data collection in the field, I think a good version-one model would be to have a central app (whether it's online or offline) and separate data collection modules. There could be a small stripped down mobile/laptop data collection app that presented basic input forms and then loaded data to the main app. This would allow you to support multiple data collection platforms fairly quickly because you'd only be porting the input forms, not the entire back end storage and reporting.

The development model would be to roll out a central app with data collection, reporting etc. and then add additional data collection modes as the market for them developed. This would allow you to avoid the question of whether to deploy to Android or iPhone in the first round while still building an architecture that would support all such devices.

wow, you guys have been busy this morning.

@rayrayangel: Thanks for the kind comments. I think we're just about to the point of taking another signigicant step with this idea.

@CharonV: I like the idea of including a tutorials section. Good call.

@Kevin_Cox: I think Micco covered all the bases that came to my mind. Basically, having the ability to easily update and grow the app is at the top of my list.

@Micco: We're on the same wave length. Just a few minutes ago I posted pretty much the same idea on both poll pages to see what others thought.

One interesting question to ask in those beekeeping forums is whether they lean toward PC or Mac or Linux. If the beekeeping community is heavily split, then that makes an online app much more attractive. If a significant number of beekeepers use Mac (more than the general average) and we develop a PC-based app, we've already lost a significant part of the market.