Ideas

I really support this kind of niche product. I think if you have someone who really knows the domain leading software design you can have a successful product.

Are you thinking of shippable software [on cds] or a web based application? If your target market is younger and more tech savvy, the web based version might be a better way to go. I'll admit to having a web-centric bias.

Thanks Laura. The decision of CD's vs. Web based is still up for grabs at the moment although I lean towards the CD route. I lean in this direction only because of what I'm hearing from other beekeepers. Thanks for the input.

Ken

I would support it. I think that a CD version would be better than web based. That way you include the "old timers" in the mix.
Right KES?

That's what I'm hearing and tend to agree with so far Fyrman.

You might think about doing both the CD and web based versions. The app is the same, it is just the delivery system that is different. I think many people like myself are used to getting most of their software over the web and like that option better.

I love it. Niche product, firm need, desperate market that is growing. Sounds like a potential winner to me!

I would suggest doing the service entirely online myself, especially since you mention that the industry is getting more tech savvy. It would appeal to urban bee keepers ( yes they exist! ) and to rural hobbiests. It's getting harder and harder to find areas that are still on dial up, even in rural settings. Keeping in mind that some of the clients would be on dial up, I think that cyberdude's suggestion of doing both may be a good move.

I'd honestly start with a web app first. Cross platform, cross browser.

Have you started collecting any numbers to help you pitch this idea? IE: How many new beekeepers/beehives are in production each year? How have the sales of bee-related products grown/shrunk? What's the average age/demographic spread of new beekeepers?

As well, what -specficially- will this ap do that a regular spreadsheet can't? To me the obvious benifit is allowing charting of data for those who don't know how to set it up themselves, but I think the more detail you provide, the better luck you'll have with investors. What do you need to log for bees? How often the harvest is? How many bees you see? Amount of Honey? Current market prices? Inventory levels?

Rolling out both a web and a cd version is tricky in my view because what is quick, easy, cheap on the web is not necessarily the same for a desktop ap. Your developers may use different tools, languages, ect, and will have to worry about different problems (ie different operating systems vs different browsers).

Doing research on your target market has to be the best way to decide this. If you find that most beekeepers buy software rather than use web applications, or that they don't trust online sites to store their information, then a cd ap is the way to go.

Your choice on this is going to make a big difference in your startup costs as well: With a cd software, you need a distribution system. However, if you're already familiar with distributing product (ie honey/beeswax) this is probably less of a challenge than it would be for someone who's never had to ship anything.

A compromise to the web/cd problem could be to offer a downloadable version of the software on your website: then it's accessible for those who don't want to wait to use it. I've noticed a lot of companies that have shippable software use this method.

All excellent points Laura, I'll gather some figures and get back to you.

Another point about CD vs Web app; We're talking about people entering in information about their hives over a long period of time. If this is a web app, many will not have confidence in the longevity of a site. They will have poured hours into tracking their hives and will want a way to ensure that the site won't disappear one day with all their records.

I think that is a great Idea. As a fellow beekeeper and being in my mid 30s as well as female I have been looking for a user friendly easy software for beekeeping. The other out there are lame and not cheap and there is no longer any support and they dont have the options we need. You can not print out reports on just one hive. Or print out or set reminders for certain things you need to do with what hive. Would also like to track life progress of the hive the amount of honey produced what and when stuff was fed. what meds were given when. What was done at each inspection and what you found out and what needs to be done when and if you need to set reminders for that hive you can do so then. I have been thinking about this for a while now and I have so many ideas for this software. I am on the bee forum you are on and where you had posted the link. You should do a poll on bee source as well as beemaster and the organic beekeeping sites and see what others would like. There is still alot of dial up out there. Allot of customers if they want high speed internet they have to get it via satlite which is expensave. As I live in the middle of california and the big phone companies are so cheap they said that putting line out in the boonies of the counties it not in there long term plans and do not look for it in the next 20 years. Phone lines out here also suck so you can hardly download an easy cartoon clip let alone software. I would say do it on cd or flash drices there you can have the software as well as save your info right onto the memory stick and take it with you anywhere in the world. Say you are a sideliner and you are doing pollination you can take your stick with your laptop and software and all of your saved info and start working from anywhere and from any computer just a few ideas. If you want to chat I am Angi_H on all of the bee forums pm me if you would like. I think you would be able to do allot of sales.

With bees dying out in Europe this indeed might be a niche market. I love bees but the people who keep them tend to be a bit traditional. On the other hand newcomers might love this kind of technology.
Of course you can use Excel and word...

I think the importance of the web app on this one is sharing information. You can use it to help build statistic models and meta data structures that your beekeeper community can use to help deal with the problems they are having. If everything is just seperated to individuals a lot of the magic with this starts to fade if you ask me.

Bees are astronomically important to the lifecycle of the agriculture sector, especially fruit growers. Having them die out en mass is a bad bad thing.

Though it does sound like the market is web-app averse, due to technology understanding and technology limitiations. ( IE: Dialup ).

Thanks guys for the comments, they're always appreciated. True, the beek community tends to lean a bit more traditional. My goal is to design something that will include them, but will most likely be more useful to someone who understands how to organize and form the information.

I like Laura's idea of a downloadable version. Let's not forget that beekeepers might be a niche market, but they're all over the world and that makes them a global niche market. It would be easier to reach them (and cheaper) if they could log in and download the program. It would also give us the central location for meta data development.

I'm having a difficult time finding some good stats on registered beekeepers and hives.....still working on that one.

Scoobie: If you are having a hard time finding stats, make the stats part of the product, and then sell them. You can have the stats on you beekeepers in a big ole database that you sell to companies that market/sell beekeeper stuff. I don't mean email addresses and personal info, I mean stats on where beekeepers are, what problems they are having, what things they are doing, needs they have, locations, growth rates of the industry, etc. That information is GOLD.

I really like this idea. Niche software products are very attractive. And I've always like the appeal of cottage industries like beekeeping.

I think the discussion of client-side app versus web app is an important start. For a web app, the benefits are: easier to implement a subscription-based business model, easier to evolve the product and add new features on the fly (especially important for a startup that may want to release a beta early but continue to polish), and much easier deployment because cross-browser issues are much less painful than cross-OS or even Vista vs. XP issues. I think the biggest downside of a web app is the longevity issue you mentioned above.

For a client-side installed app, the big downside is deployment. I've been involved in both kinds of projects and I absolutely hate all the little problems that arise in client-side deployments. It also means you have to spend a lot more time testing before you "go gold" (burn distro CDs) because you can't tweak and fix later like you can with a web app. Yes, there are good client-side update capabilities, but nothing as easy as rolling out changes to a web app. Of course you could do a client-side app using something like Microsoft's ClickOnce deployment that provides a built-in model for updating. This could give you the best of both worlds.

Have you done a basic software requirements doc, outlining the basic features you'd want in version 1?

Thanks for joining us Micco. What about a downloadable .exe file and forget about CD's. We could create the best of both worlds, so to speak. Create a site that hosts the client-side app where people can download and always be able to keep it updated with the newest version. The site would also allow us the opportunity to foster a community and begin to collect the relative information that daraddishman was talking about in his last post.

Yes, I have a pretty good top-level idea of what the program needs to do and the features it should have.

A downloadable EXE is certainly better than CDs. Very few software companies distribute on CD anymore. However, whether it's a download or a CD, you still have all the deployment problems inherent in a client-side application such as version conflicts, the classic DLL hell, conflicts with other apps, etc. For something simple like this which doesn't have to interact with other apps on the user's computer, those issues might be minimal but they can't be discounted and you should make sure you have a good solid test period on a wide variety of systems before you start rolling out to potential customers.

I think Micco has a good point here. But it sounds like you have access to a couple of active communities, and you wouldn't have trouble attracting alpha and beta testers.

You might be able to come up with a hybrid concept: the main software is a downloadable exe, but you could perhaps tie it into a website through the ability to upload some of the data to a website to allow comparisions and mass analysis. So you have all the functionality in the download, but some sort of extra functions that are available through the website.

I don't know enough about beekeeping to know if there are features that would be able to be split this way, but I would think you'd want some sort of space for tech support and discussion if nothing else.

You're obviously going to get a ton of suggestions for features, and I think you'll have a big job prioritizing them, but in the end I would think you need to come up with a 'feature set for launch' and 'future features list' to fill in your business plan for investors.

Hello again Laura. I've been playing with the idea of the hybrid concept for a few days now and I'm really beginning to like it. It would allow for quick updates and fixes and provide a central location for, like you said, tech support and forums.

The base set of features is pretty much set, but I won't bore you with things like varroa mite count and things of the sort. ;-) The gathering of mass data will have to be secondary. I really want to focus on bringing a quality set of tools to start with since the market basically has none.

This is software so there are two words I am looking for: design documentation? What exact feature specifications do you have and outline all parts and how they work.

I have that, sort of. Since I don't know anything about writing design docs, it's basically a list of tasks I want the software to perform.

The basics something like this: (option for standard or metric)

Chose Apiairy (the location where hives are kept)
Choose Hive (By number or name)
Hive information page contains info: Name, Hive Type, Bee Race, Hive inception, Hive history, Queen origin, Marked/Unmarked, Clipped/Unclipped, Queen lineage (Queen mother, Queen grandmother, Raised, Supercedure.

Hive Inspection:
Weather conditions, Behavior, Supers (Deeps, Mediums, Shallows), Honey weight, Frames, Brood (eggs, larve and capped brood), Pollen, Honey, Pests, Medications, Feeding yes/no, feeding what, amount of food taken, Queen seen, Queen condition, Access to Queen lineage page, Journal (this needs to have the ability to review easily and be able to print out a range of past notes) and complete information on honey harvest

Customizable reports and/or graphs
Task Manager
Schedule reminders.
Hive/tools inventory

Scoobie, I'd suggest trying to create some mockups of several screens, such as entry screens, graphs/charts, task manager. A flow chart of screen to screen might be useful as well. It doesn't have to be a perfect user interface, but it should help flush out exactly what you need the software to do, and if you end up hiring someone to write out a specific design document, they'll have a good source to work from. If you're not a programmer or software engineer, you'll be hiring one at some point., and they can flush things out for you more, but the clearer you can make your vision to them and your potential investors, the smoother the process can go.

I'm not sure how software company investment/creation cycles happen, but I would start thinking of some of the bigger questions: how do I determine a.) what I'm going to create b.) what resources I need c.) how much will it cost and d.) what time line do I want to achieve this in.

That should let you start flushing out your pitch to investors, and also elict some more feedback for you.

That's a great start Scoobie. The next step would be describing what each of those data fields looks like. For example, something like "Hive Name" would be a text field of a certain length. Would a question like Hive Type and Bee Race be text inputs or dropdowns (dropdowns providing better usability if you can anticipate all possible inputs). Would things like Queen lineage be structured data or just a longer text input?

I really like paper prototyping for this stage of a project. On paper, you can sketch out what each of the screens should look like and how they link together. Doing this on paper is quicker than doing it in some graphical tool and allows you to easily change things, but it also allows you to think through the details of how all this would work together and find gaps that you might not have noticed until you see it in front of you.

This step doesn't necessarily nail down the GUI design so don't think of it as necessarily designing the final look and feel. It does provide an overview of the workflow of the app and starts to define the basic data structures. A lot of programmers start at the database and workflow level and work up toward a GUI, but for more general users, it's usually easier to start at the GUI where they can imagine how they'd interact with the app and then build downward from there to data design.

So, just to be clear, I didn't actually copy Laura word for word. I must just type more slowly.

I think you made similar but not identical points. But I didn't mention paper prototyping, so hat tip for micco!

Micco & Laura, you guys are great, thanks for the input.

Micco, I'm glad you mentioned paper prototyping because this is all my skillset will allow. I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum from a programmer. I'm your typical end-user, I can use it but I can't make it. With that said, I'll get to work trying to lay out my visions for the program.

Laura, the issue of investors is a little easier for me, I'm sold on the idea of the program and understand the urgent need for a higher level of record keeping for the hobbyiest beekeeper. I also under understand the overwhelming lack of competition. This is something I can sell. However, I'm at a loss for determining how much such a venture would cost. Development, hosting, distribution, maintenance and support...... having no background here, I'm not even sure how to estimate that.

Well, that's where your initial list of resources comes in:

What kind of business are you going to run and what fees are involved [small business license, corporation]

Do you need offices? Or is this a home business? [Rent, utilities, parking, furniture, phone line]
How many employees/services will you need (ei, at least one programmer, an accountant, a lawyer, shipping system, beta/alpha testers/quality control, tech support) Are you planning to hire full time/part time people, use contract workers on a per project basis? How often you plan to release upgrades and revisions will affect this answer.

What other expenses will the business require? Logo design? Business cards, Website design, advertising, domain name? Do you plan to promote it a beekeeping conferences [travel + hotel expenses]?

How are you taking payments? What does your payment processing service cost? What countries do you want to accept payments from?

What are your monthly expenses? What are your one time expenses? What are your yearly expenses?

For the hosting, it's going to depend on the website - a static brochure site is going to require less resources than a site that has recurring users uploading data and viewing a lot of pages. Hosting is easy to upgrade though, and I personally count good technical support and reliability worth extra cost.

Also consider what this is going to cost you in TIME. If you only have 10 hours a week to devote to this project, what does that allow you to accomplish? If you are giving up your day job for this, what does that allow and require?

How fast do you want to get to market? Once you get to market, how will the time requirements of the business change? Before launch, you don't have any customer service/tech support issues, for example.

Once you can break down all your requirements, you can start researching salary ranges, and design quotes, cost for physical items, etcetera, and start getting putting together some estimations.

I'd also see if there are any grants or programs for entrepreneurs in your area. Even if you don't qualify for them, finding out what information they are asking for or what steps they expect you to have taken can be valuable. They may also offer resources and workshops and know about the specific regulations that govern your area.

What can I say Laura, you're just awesome. Thank you. :-)

I find it funny that there are comments about BeeKeepers being Technophobes, or Backwards.
I rely on the internet for everything from my Equipment to diagnosing Diseases in my Bees. I personally run the Network Operations Center of an Internet Access Reseller that owns over 200 ISPs nationwide and in Canada.
The stereotype of the old guy Beekeeper is a myth. My ten year old son has hives I can guarantee you he'll kick your Butt at HALO.

My experience with Beekeeping software is that it tends to not be all encompassing enough, for example, For me it would be imperative that I Bee able to track the lineage of my Queens.

Scoobie, judging from what everyone is saying you have a really solid idea. Whether or not you win this round in the ideawarz, I think you should set up a business on CH. That will get you access to a wiki and some organization tools that will help you with your design documentation, business model/plan writing, ect.

I am totally in for helping you out with any documentation you need to write. I've done a number of design docs for web apps and video games, and I've written a couple business plans and know a bunch of business models.

Let me know if you need a sample design doc, I have a bunch floating around.

I think this is a great idea. It will definitely meet the need of the average beekeeper. And if the end cost is around $50, they will easily be able to afford it. And frankly, couldn't afford to do without it since it will greatly benefit their outcome if used consistently. Sounds like a "honey of a deal" to me. hee. hee.

I agree that you should have the option to download the software since everyone loves instant results. I also agree that your market is worldwide. Way to go Scoobie. Good idea!

Scoobie, let me know if you need help with some of the initial design work. I have messed with it in the past.

It addresses the global ccd problem and beekeepers' problems. Great idea!

Your initial description of functions sounded like programing in a spreadsheet (or database) might suffice. Will it be a $50 program, or could it be offered for less ($15-$20?)? I am naive about the specifics, so no worries if it is a $50 program.

I like downloading programs and using them successfully offline before considering joining a network to share data.

You will be a winner, I think. This is the kind of idea that works. It's focused, it's niched, it's simple, it doesn't aim to make a lot of money just help, and you know what you're talking about. Bingo.

By the way, are you experiencing Bee Hive Collapse Syndrome (or whatever it's called)?

BeeWare is a great name. The logo needs work -- doesn't express your concept.

Scoobie, you mentioned earlier that you were having trouble finding stats on bee keepers. Is there any way you can estimate the market? Are there industry associations that would give you membership counts or industry magazines that would give subscriber counts? Obviously anything like that would be reluctant to disclose full subscriber lists, but it seems like they should be willing to brag about the raw numbers.

I'd be interested to see some sort of preliminary business plan estimates of potential market. This idea really appeals to me because it's an interesting niche and focused enough to be do-able, and I'd be willing to write code for it. But before I'd invest time, I'd want to know at least the potential upside. If this is a destined to be a little shareware app that sells 100 copies, we've already spent more time than that's worth, but if there's a potential to sell 10K or 100K copies, it might be worthwhile. This will also figure heavily in the business model you want to adopt. If your rosy upside is selling 10K copies at best, you either need to sell them for a lot of money or you need some kind of subscription model where you get a little money every year in order to make it worthwhile. If you can sell 100K or more, then the price per copy you need to make it worthwhile comes down. Obviously this is a niche market so you're never going to have millions of users, but it would be good to put an initial order of magnitude estimate on what the market could look like.

Another thing to consider is how you could diversify horizontally into other niches. Could the underlying code be built fairly generic and then have modules for bees, goats, cattle, etc.? It seems like the basic things you want to track (lineage, feed, meds, etc.) apply to all sorts of livestock. Maybe the real business model here should be to build an "agricultural Quicken" with the initial prototype focused on bees.

That's an interesting take Micco, I hadn't given much thought to creating a horizontal product. I'll put some more thought in to that but my first focus has to be the bees.

I'm right in the middle of searching for beekeeper stats. It's not nearly as easy as I thought. I get more info on things like the number of hives (2.4 million producing colonies in the US in 2007) as opposed to number of beekeepers (our users). I still can't find any stats for other countries and in order to reach the numbers we're looking for, I think we'll have to offer this in several different countries.

It might be worth while to put up a market test site on this to help gather numbers, as described here: http://www.cambrianh...orks/crowds-test-it/

Scoobie, are you familiar with any of the industry magazines like beeculture.com? If there are magazines that are ad supported, they should be willing to give you subscriber numbers. Just tell them you are considering advertising a product to their subscribers (which is true, just not immediately) and they should share all kinds of stats to justify their ad rates.

There's a few seemingly-similar products online:
http://www.beecare.c...vices/Technology.htm
http://www.dpi.nsw.g...ement/tools/software
http://www.xenacom.com/xap_overview.aspx
http://www.chrixon.c...BeeFiles/default.htm

At some point, you'll want to compare/contrast with these so you can describe how you'll differentiate from competitors. You'll also need to estimate how much of the potential market is already served by these types of products because it will be much harder to market to people switching from an existing product to people upgrading from paper records.

Micco, I'm a subscriber to BeeCulture which seems to be the industry standard for journals. They have a circulation of about 12,000.

Links:

The "Beecare Professional" product is in development and seems to be in the "research" phase.

The next link is for some called "Honey Money" and is an Excel spread sheet for tracking the honey cost of production. It's not hive management software.

Xenacom offers a very high end product that ranges from $900 usd to $20,000. They do offer a Hobby version for 200 or less hives but it's $300, way too much for the hobbyist beekeeper. The don't offer any information on the Hobbyist app other than a few basic tasks. It's fairly new but it doesn't seem to support Vista (no mac) Also, when I tried to call the company, the phone has been disconnected.

The Chrixon product looks to be the closest concept to what I have in mind. I downloaded the product and tried it out for a few weeks but quickly found out that it's not very interactive and most of all, it has no note taking ability. This is simply a must-have in the app. A couple of weeks ago I had a question about the program so I sent off a note via their comments page. A few days later, when I had heard nothing back, I used their email address and it bounced back within seconds. It seems that they've closed up shop, even though the product still for sale. The price for the Hobby product was just over $100 usd and $325 for their professional product. They list some resellers but I couldn't find the product on any of their sites.

As far as I can see, strong, well supported, economical beekeeping software doesn't exist.
____________________

@Laura: I'm planning on the test site but I want to finish my financial research first.

@Landksy: That's not the logo, I just placed it there so I would have a pic during the voting round. I don't have a logo yet. Ideas?? Also, to answer your earlier question; no I haven't had any CCD, but another local beek has.

@fyrman: Let's talk about some basics. I'll email you.

@Micco: You've got Bmail

@Everyone: Thanks for all the insight, feedback and offers to help. I'm up to my eyeballs trying to advance this project and complete the proper due diligence. If you have an interest in working on this project, please let me know.

Thanks again,

Scoob

How do you currently track your bees? A custom spreadsheet? I don't know how much info you're willing to expose at present, but you could upload that as a Google Document and give a people look at some real data.

If you're saying people PRESENTLY use their own spreadsheets, and everyone creating their own as they go along, perhaps the simplest first step, is to create a spreadsheet template of your own and sell it. That would turn this strictly into a marketing exercise, but its would be handy for establishing a web presence and gathering your own marketing data to help justify the creation of a full-blown app.

I've always kept paper records, until just recently. I designed a spreadsheet and have a couple of records in it from the last two or three inspections. I've only done this for two hive, kind of as a test run. Also, the things I track are minimal and I haven't elaborated on it at all. It's very basic, but could be expanded.

Someone tell me how to load it up to Google Docs and I'll share it tonight.

Another thought, why would anyone buy spreadsheet template when they are so easy to design or they already have one? I don't think it would give us a good indication of interest or need. What I'm trying to create is something better than a simple spreadshee