Ideas

interestingly, this is similar to a project i've been working on for the past few months dev site @ http://eva.auzen.com

i didn't get as complicated as to creating an actual toolkit... but i did start uploading a repository of some of the .skp models used to create my movie http://repository.ce...ndex.php?a=furniture

the idea is basically rich media fan fiction, flash style

Hi yosofun,

impressive work, like the cartoon-style !
Indeed this is the sort of animation movies that could be made.
Your Centaurina repository is an excellent example of how digital assets could be exchanged and reused inside other movies, even up to the point of exchanging complete pre-designed sets and scenes.

I was not thinking using flash as a format but more mpeg-4 as a video format . It could be an alternative though : I'm not a flash expert but I though it also supports 3D studio max formats ?
I don't know if their is a good open source tool for creating flash ( maybe at osflash ? )

Have a look at this example : today : http://orange.blender.org/media-gallery. It is completely made with open source tools, all the production files can be downloaded freely from the site and the movie is distributed on DVD by them.

Anyway, their already exists open source tools which we could bundle to create an initial toolkit. An option would be to extend the exisitng tools to support the complete animation production flow + focus on ease-of-use. Another option is to build a toolkit from scratch (I have been investigating using Ogre 3D as a base ) ..

As long as we define standards ( formats ) for the exchange of digital assets ( or support conversion tools ), it would possible to start defining an online community in parallel.

The movies is a video game that does the same thing.

I had this type of idea about 1 year ago... then the game came out...

Hi Moogy,

The basic approach has some similarities, agreed :
1. a tool to create movies
2. an online community to exchange movies + digital assets

There are distinct differences with my idea though :

1. On the tool :
-----------------
a. A dedicated tool to create movies, not a game !!!!
b. A free and open-source tool + a common open source business model to earn money on more professional versions, support
c. Must scale to create (semi-) professional quality movies, no low-quality movies
d. Support for advertisement that is integrated in the movie itself ( see similarities with in-game advertismeent )
e. multi-user tool, required to have people collaborate on the same movie !

2. On the on-line community :
----------------------------------
a. Support for movie project management to enhance collaboration on a single movie
b. Focus on support for artists to create movies through generating income with movies & options for marketing & distribution

Hope this helps to clarify

I think you should take this idea and the Open Source Movie Studio(http://www.cambrianhouse.com/idea-warz/idea-promoter/ideas-id/zjhWzN7) and put them together.

However, I think you are both off target on on starting with movie creation. Movie creation is an enormous task with no return on your investment for years.

If you modify this idea to making commercials then you can develop commercials that will have a much quicker return on investment. Not to mention, I think commercials are perfect for crowdsourcing.

After being established with commercials then you could use the technology and collaboration to move on to movies.

Honestly, I almost submitted this as its own idea, but I figured that dilluted the ideas. I think it's better to keep the collaboration focused.

Techguy,

you have 2 very good points :

1. This idea and the open source movie studio could be brought together.
Where Gordon would focus on starting off with scripts exchange, I would focus more on supporting a toolkit reuse existing technology, partnerships, .. ) for the practical development of a toolkit + the exchange of all kinds of digital assets to ease the production effort. An online community for collaborative movie creation could be created in parallel (I believe it also to be complementary with the film funding idea.

2. Commercial movies have a lower return on investment.
My idea could address just that, see my reasoning :

a. lower investment required
- free or low budget toolkit
- free or low budget digital assets
- free or low budget workmanship ( assembling a project team, collaborating on creating a movie as if it would be an open source sw development )
- provide income generation to start/ create the movie ( funding, ads)
- increase/encourage reuse of existing assets
- limit human intervention by focussing on digital movies
- lower marketing costs

b. quicker return of investment
- toolkit to support rapid development and multiple users working on a single movie project
- easier distribution/promotion facitlities ( provide online distribution/promotion services )

c. possible application markets ( beyond movie creation )
- digital animation movies in general
- machinima, digital puppetry
- commercial movies ( short/ feature film )
- animatics, storyboarding
- advertising, creating commericals
- education , training

IMhotep,
One point of clarification. I personally think you should not start with movies, but instead you should use the "possible application markets" that you listed(advertising/commercials, short/feature films) as the starting point for creating the toolkit. Selling commercials or short/feature films will generate revenue sooner than a full movie. Plus, it's almost like a proof of concept with each commercial/short film providing another piece to the toolkit.

Then, once the toolkit is larger enough, you can take on the larger task of making a full movie and realize all the lower costs/quicker return on investment you describe.

Techguy,

You have a good point, thx for your valuable feedback !
Hope you can help me realize this idea soon -)

To give an idea on what kind of features the open source movie toolkit could have, have a look at these links :

http://www.reallusio...lone/ic_features.asp
http://www.reallusio...clone/home_video.asp

Great idea!

It would be possible to compete against other smaller companies as a community :)

Vote +1

I like this idea, and it's something I'd like to use (like Film Funder). I think it will be hard for it to make a lot of money. I think the DRM side is the most lucrative of the ways you've posted, but I think it will take some time there until the site gets there.

Thx for the comment Aidan.

You're analysis is correct :

1. It will be hard to make a lot of money with it.

It will be hard yes, but on the other hand, this idea does have a huge potential to make a lot of money with it.
What is happening today is pointing completely in this direction :

Today, movie making is rapidly shifting digital : more special effects in movies, animated movies like Shrek & Ice age, digital cinema is taking off, digital movie making equipment becomes affordable for the masses, video sharing is booming, internet tv, tv & pc are merging together, digital camera & mobiles & ipod supporting movie making, game technology is advancing real-time move making possibilities ...

If Cambrianhouse ( and community ) chooses not to persue this, someone else will. Today, except Blender ( which is a complex 3D modelling tool ), there are no free or affordable & user-friendly tools for the masses : this is the entry point for an open market ( there is definitely demand for it ! )

2. Making the site will take some time

The main issue is that this idea is/needs a long term vision and a good strategy to start making money from the beginning. The key to make it work is :
1) Develop gradually, in phases
2) Develop the movie creation tool + site in parallel : they complement
3) Start off with ideas that can start making money from the beginning and complement/integrate with this idea : film funding, making commercials as techguy suggests
4) Seek partners : this could boost time-to-market and provide us eg. quickly with movie creation tool/technology ( see what Google did with Sketchup to provide a free easy 3D modelling tool that complements their Google earth strategy).

Conclusion :

It won't be easy to develop this idea and it certainly needs a good strategy behind, especially to make money from it from the beginning. However, it does have huge potential and there are opportunities to make this happen sooner when selecting the right partners. There are endless ways to make money with this idea if it is easily accesable to the masses. Someone will make it happen, it's bound to ...

I've posted a visual presentation of the 4 pilars of collaborative movie creation on http://imhotep.wordp...tive-movie-creation/

From now on, I will regularly update my blog with more background information ..

Transgaming technologies sells their programs as services $5 dollars a month (minimum of three months initial payment.) While the programs are fully functional even if you cancel your subscriptions but doing so forfiets upgrades patches and support for new games.

The same pay scheme could be applied here . Also, an incentive to contribute to onling repositories would be to have contests for new 3D objects a top percentage each month would recive account credit.

Great thinking Joel ! thx for the comment !

it was fine

This is probably one of the best thought out and presented ideas in CH to-date. Excellent research and supporting blog Imhotep and it gets my vote.

One suggestion I would like to add is to include sound and music pre-production tools into the solution. Sound and music are integral to all video and film productions and it would be i think a first to see these tools built into a production suite rather than just the post-production inclusion of these elements which is the way it is normally done.

I think being able to produce and include sound effects and music into the storyboarding and production build would add and allow a new dimension of creativity and efficiency and also widen the market place... More realistic reviews of the film as it develops would be possible and editing could be synchronised to all intrinsic elements. Sound and music could then be an effective parallel activity rather than a sequential one as in present methods...

Just an idea:)

Thx for your support Doymarn,

the idea does include support for sound effects & music.
Indeed, without it movie creation would be - to say the least- limited. I have not elaborated on the integration of music & sound yet but I just might in one of my next posts -)

If you look at my conceptual overview http://www.flickr.co...18264@N00/237870150/ or at http://imhotep.wordpress.com you'll see the support to add music scores + sound. This also opens possibilities for creative musicians to join the project.

On top of that, the solution needs to support lipsync / voice-over and members need the possibility to add voices to the 3d characters.

I would say, to be continued ...

Further to clarify my earlier comment:- I am stressing the idea of building into the solution integral PRE-PRODUCTION tools for sound and music not just POST production tools which is the current norm in the industry.

I was involved in the music industry for a number of years and one of the biggest frustrations of a composer or sound studio is that music and sound instruction is briefed at 'some time' in production along with timing guidelines. The studio or composer then tends to work in relative isolation working to these guidelines. When it is time for delivery the movie has been edited or changed so much that the original material sometimes just has to be re-recorded or substantial additional time is required to re-edit the submissions often losing something on the way.

Because of this messy possibility some film producers will not commission sound or music production until the main edits have been completed on the project. This then delays delivery and undue pressure is placed on the sound and music contributors to deliver in an unreasonable time-frame often resulting in inferior contributions.

My suggestion is to build into the software placeholders for the sound or music components at the conceptualisation stages of the project and when production takes place the musicians or studio can start to work and submit content interactively as the project develops.

I think this will also open the way for more creativity in a project as new dimensions might appear with both creative elements (Sound & Vision) being born together rather than just glueing them together later. It would also allow for more complete reviews of work in progress to be realised as these main ingredients stay in step along the way.

It would also allow for earlier collaborative invitations to be initiated in the sound and music production and therefore widen the submission net for contributions and succeed in better quality of submission.

I also think with the smaller scale projects, especially one man band type projects, with the right tools like this could greatly simplify the production for them.

There are many types of VST pluggins that could assist in this area without the need to develop sound and music composition tools.

Hope this clarifies my earlier suggestion and provides you with some food for thought in this aspect of your great idea.

Doymarn, you nailed it !

This goes beyond my idea to allow including sound, voice overs, background music and would actually allow people to join and collaboratively make music & sounds, dedicated to movies. I fully agree as long as the scope remains making music & sound for movies. It's an excellent way to expand the collaborative movie creation idea and reach for a broader public !

I posted your comment on my blog, I'm sure people will develop more interest with your suggestion ...

thx,

Imhotep

Cool idea, I skimmed over it and have some thoughts:

I'm assuming movies would come out looking similar to The Indigo Prophecy (for those who have played that). That game was proof that even movies without millions of dollars put into realism can still be very entertaining. However, in my experience with public resource stockpiles, works using the same program end up looking too similar to one another and after a while, really kill the good name of the product. To be a Google idea, it would have to consistantly produce movies where everything about the movie is fresh. That's not saying the program can't ever make some hit movies, but there will be a very small percentage of movies that are well done vs. the movies poorly done. But hey, like CambrianHouse, all you'd need is one smash hit.

A big obstacle is that if this were picked for market test, it'd probably be an idea that's down on the ground for a while until it has a very large resource base. It might not look good to CH being down for so long, and I estimate it might take a year or more to get off the ground. However, during that building up phase, it could grow greatly in popularity, so the ad revenues might actually keep it up there. Then, once it's gotten enough resources and personnel, it'd explode in popularity.

Real 3D artists are pretty highly paid already, and the more they're paid, the less likely they'd have interest in the site. Why go out and make free resources when you have a family at home and are already highly paid at your job for the same thing? I have a feeling this would only get moderately skilled animators that don't do it for a living, but maybe it will be very user-friendly. I don't know.

You'd probably have to make environments much smaller to fit individual themes, rather than entire scapes. Sure, there's going to be a need for some large environments.... But with games, you can get away with monotonous environments, but in movies, you can't or else they look too unprofessional. This means there's going to be some very large projects that will need a lot of people will need to work on in order to make it look decent, and unless they're getting nicely paid, I don't see that happening.

You can kind of already do this with 3D animation programs, it'd just take a bit more learning/work. The only thing this has against current programs, IMO, is the strong community focused on making movies. Maybe a better idea would be to build a movie making community based on existing software, since it'd be cheaper and less risky.

If something like this ever does get made, I'd have to take advantage of it and make the animated movie I've been wanting to make for ages :)

Hi Cory_Ross,

In principle, the movies can look as great and real as the best game engine with the best hardware gets. The technology is advancing so fast that this idea is no longer a dream but is becoming more & more real every day.

On the google idea, the business model does not limit on making movies but it can be used to make Youtube vids, commercials, company presentations, ...just anything what is now typically rendered by a 3D graphics package or filmed.

Revenue is not limited to selling movies but advertising inside the movies ( eg. dependent on hits on youtube ), trading professional digital assets, support, professional sw versions, ...

I agree this is not an idea that is easily prototyped in 6 weeks, but it can be launched in phases, partnerships with existing sw packages is a possibillity AND CH does not need to rely on this idea only. It would be an ideal long-term plan that would not generate revenue soon but does have enormous potential, this can be CH's pension plan -)

It's not the intention all digital assets are free, some are and it would be encouraged ( eg. by advertising revenue ) but it would also be a trading platform for professional digital assets, so actually attracting professional artists instead of scaring them.

On making smaller environments, don't forget it's not a game with 1 environment. It would be possible to define different scenes, each with different environments, similar as shooting a movie on different sets.

I also agree that it can be done with 3D graphics packages BUT it is typically much harder and more difficult. I'm advocating a tool that works more easy, productive & has a free version.
A partnership is still an option. I describe this more in detail on my blog http://imhotep.wordp...starting-the-engine/

The advantage of this idea is not only the community but also the business model behind it and the tool(s) to support the community.

Thanks for the comment !

Feel free to read more on http://imhotep.wordpress.com

Okay, that clears some things up. Your ideas of using some open sourced engines would make implimentation costs much less. Also, for some reason I was thinking the artists wouldn't make much money at all because I figured the user base would be hobbyists, but then what you said about using it for commercials made me think of its enormous potential in business. Animation made much cheaper and easier is something businesses would scramble for. And businesses can afford to pay decent amounts to artists.

I'm pretty much on board with anything that allows the public to be a part of profitable business, so you have my vote :)

I also thought that it sounds a lot little like
http://www.themoviesgame.com/

Still, you could do it differently enough I guess. But the game had the advantage of also being a game, and you don't have that. So the number of people working on it will probably be a lot less.

Julius,

This concept uses an engine that is comparable to a game engine, but the comparison stops there. "The movies" uses a "gamish style" to develop a movie, this idea uses a dedicated tool to develop a movie, and the result should be more professional as well and focus on ease of use & productivity as well.

Besides that, there is also a complete business model behind this idea to make money with these movies and use collaboration and sharing of assets to speed up the production process.

I don't agree that people won't use it as much as the movies because it's a game. Some people play the Movies for the game, some use it because there is simply no good tool available to create animated movies.

The target market/users is much bigger than a game audience. It targets professional & amateur use, not only for short or feature films but also commercials, company presentations, .. If you realize that Youtube has 65.000 uploaded movies a day and serves > 100 million movies, animated movies will grab a large portion of this market. Even more when the creation tool is easy enough & produces good quality.