Cambrian House
I agree with you. I thought the same thing the first time I saw it. I believe the exact text is something along the lines of "Your mom's so fat she doesn't even fit in this text box", but amusingly, on my browser only the "your mom's so fat she doesn't" portion is visible.
I'm not so much "offended" by it as I think it's stupid and unprofessional. I can imagine many people getting offended by it.
Your argument doesn't make sense unless you think the community can get things working without all those professional types. There are already enough ideas that can be implemented. The obvious next step is to get some of these ideas off the ground as real businesses.
I totally agree with you on this point. However, my original case is still valid in that there are some people that are valuable to a startup that would take offense to fat jokes about mom, myself included.
So is posting in forums on social networking sites in the middle of the afternoon... and yet here we are
It is ok to have fun, and let loose a little.
Creativity is a wonderful thing that doesn't work very well when it is confined to artificial boundaries.
I like Gord's idea, suggest something else that isn't as offensive to display there. Problem solved.
Just for the record, I'm not an ex-CH employee. I guess those other guys are.
I just don't like the text box that's all. You're right I am an ex-employee. I certainly don't think it makes my comment less relevant.
I thought I did by posting this message in the CH forums. Maybe there aren't many high level VCs, etc. in your community.
I could be 100% wrong about this being offensive. VCs? Marketing experts? Angel investors? Lawyers? if you're here chime in please.
Before CH went dark, during the amazing Transparent times (oh how I miss those day's) CH was talking and moving that way! Creating a CH for everyone, so you selected what type of CH you want. Are you like me and are here for the creative fun of CH? (so I want the random and fun things) or are you the hard core business person (and only want the facts with no flashy things to get in your way).
I have no idea if CH dropped this idea or is working super hard on this, because they went into super secret mode... not talking to anyone about what they are developing, not really asking for our input (other then Gord's post (which was my idea)). This is funny because CH is all about being open, every idea on CH is here for pear review excepted for the CH platform it self? If you want CH to be about developing ideas and business then let us help you develop your ideas and business...
oh and Scotty YOU MOM IS TO FAT TO FIT IN A TEXT BOX... I would be really scared if she could... seriously.
You can't end a game in a tie. Is that Canadian rules football or something?
A game can definitely end in a tie. Examples:
tic tac toe
cricket
soccer
The difference being that calling people "fat" is widely accepted as rude, whereas none of those things are.
My fear #1. I hope to one day conquer the startup mountain too.
ROTFL
Continuing with the "yo' mamma" theme you could have "yo' momma so old she couldn't look at the source code to read the rest of this quote"
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But all joking aside, I think rereading the posts with a bit more sleep, I think the point of the original post was to ask who is CH trying to appeal to.
Scotty was pointing out certain humor might be frowned upon by more conservative venture capitalists.
Ideas are the beginning points of all fortunes.Napoleon Hill
Cambrian House began as a crowdsourcing community using a wisdom of crowds based approach to discover new business and technology ideas. These pages are being kept online as a technology demo to showcase Chaordix™.
Looking to harness the power of your crowd? Find out about Chaordix™ - technology that enables enterprises to get the most out of crowdsourcing.
People
don't call my mom fat
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CyberCerberus
    Member since: Jul 6, 2006 Rank: God of Thunder (1181 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 16, 2007, 2:35 pm scotty said:
She doesn't really like being called fat.
I was browsing the site and the search box on the bottom left (which doesn't look like a search box by the way) said "your mom is too fat to fit in this textbox".
It's childish and offensive. Not casual. Not creative. Not funny. Obviously this is an MJ feature.
I'm curious about what other people think.
I agree with you. I thought the same thing the first time I saw it. I believe the exact text is something along the lines of "Your mom's so fat she doesn't even fit in this text box", but amusingly, on my browser only the "your mom's so fat she doesn't" portion is visible.
I'm not so much "offended" by it as I think it's stupid and unprofessional. I can imagine many people getting offended by it.
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
It accomplished it intent... you looked there and read the message, now there is no doubt in your mind where the search box is (instead of the cookie cutter search at the top).
I personally find the messages funny. Sometimes I find myself refreshing the page just to get a new message.
Relax a little bit, laugh a little. Watch Napoleon Dynamite. Then watch it a few more times... trust me it was stupid the first time but you see the cleverness and humor if you stick to it...
I personally would explore the site in the order provided on the left bar... visit your profile, read up on how CH works, get to know some of the people, read the ideas in this week's tournament... Don't skip steps...
I personally find the messages funny. Sometimes I find myself refreshing the page just to get a new message.
Relax a little bit, laugh a little. Watch Napoleon Dynamite. Then watch it a few more times... trust me it was stupid the first time but you see the cleverness and humor if you stick to it...
I personally would explore the site in the order provided on the left bar... visit your profile, read up on how CH works, get to know some of the people, read the ideas in this week's tournament... Don't skip steps...
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
It's just that in order for Cambrian House to succeed as a platform for launching businesses it has to appeal not only to the Napoleon Dynamite crowd but to VCs, marketing folks, and other *professionals*. I just don't think this does. That's all.
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Blue
Member since: Nov 22, 2006 Rank: Princess (819 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Thanks for the feedback Zach! MJ didn't come up that line, it was David and he'd like the credit for it.
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
To be honest VCs and Marketing folks are probably not interested in "just ideas" anyways. They are interested in things that can be implemented, and the best way to show this to get things working.
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
You have to admit it's very MJ like. I'll give credit where credit's due though. It's all yours David 
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 16, 2007, 5:04 pm ccozad said:
To be honest VCs and Marketing folks are probably not interested in "just ideas" anyways. They are interested in things that can be implemented, and the best way to show this to get things working.
Your argument doesn't make sense unless you think the community can get things working without all those professional types. There are already enough ideas that can be implemented. The obvious next step is to get some of these ideas off the ground as real businesses.
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Yes, I am in fact saying that. The best way to get funding from banks and VCs is to show that you will invest your own money in your idea. Then they want to know if you have covered the three F's: Friends, Family and Fools.
If you won't invest in your own idea and can't garner the support of those in your inner circle, then why should the bank and VCs?
If you won't invest in your own idea and can't garner the support of those in your inner circle, then why should the bank and VCs?
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 16, 2007, 5:30 pm ccozad said:
Yes, I am in fact saying that. The best way to get funding from banks and VCs is to show that you will invest your own money in your idea. Then they want to know if you have covered the three F's: Friends, Family and Fools.
If you won't invest in your own idea and can't garner the support of those in your inner circle, then why should the bank and VCs?
I totally agree with you on this point. However, my original case is still valid in that there are some people that are valuable to a startup that would take offense to fat jokes about mom, myself included.
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GordonMcDowell
Member since: Aug 15, 2006 Rank: Viking King (925 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
"Your momma is an astronaut"
...Doesn't fit in the textbox context.
Come up with something equally funny but not offensive to any fat people... whether they be fat due to genetic disorders or simple lack of exercise.
...Doesn't fit in the textbox context.
Come up with something equally funny but not offensive to any fat people... whether they be fat due to genetic disorders or simple lack of exercise.
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Brenden
Member since: Feb 3, 2007 Rank: Viking King (767 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
I think this type of thing is what makes CH great! we are not professorial, we are not 9 to 5ers, If you want to start a business you can and that side of CH is professional.
To be honest if I ever felt like I was in a office with CH I would not come back. This is work with a bit of fun.
To be honest if I ever felt like I was in a office with CH I would not come back. This is work with a bit of fun.
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
I'm not so much "offended" by it as I think it's stupid and unprofessional.
So is posting in forums on social networking sites in the middle of the afternoon... and yet here we are
It is ok to have fun, and let loose a little. Creativity is a wonderful thing that doesn't work very well when it is confined to artificial boundaries.
I like Gord's idea, suggest something else that isn't as offensive to display there. Problem solved.
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kevdog
Member since: Jul 2, 2006 Rank: Warrior (103 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Not really funny and not professional either. David is just covering up for mj.
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Blue
Member since: Nov 22, 2006 Rank: Princess (819 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
I'm no longer sure if this is a thread about the text box, or about ex-employees who don't like MJ.
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
This entire thread makes so much more sense now...
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CyberCerberus
Member since: Jul 6, 2006 Rank: God of Thunder (1181 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 17, 2007, 12:53 pm ccozad said:
This entire thread makes so much more sense now...
Just for the record, I'm not an ex-CH employee. I guess those other guys are.
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 17, 2007, 12:50 pm Blue said:
I'm no longer sure if this is a thread about the text box, or about ex-employees who don't like MJ.
I just don't like the text box that's all. You're right I am an ex-employee. I certainly don't think it makes my comment less relevant.
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Blue
Member since: Nov 22, 2006 Rank: Princess (819 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Jasmine and David came up with it. the text you should see is, "Your mom's so fat she doesn't", That's the hilarious part. The whole line doesn't even fit in the text box, you have to look it up in the source code to see it.
Thank you for your opinions on the text box. If you are worried about offending high level VCs, etc, I guess we should really ask one of them to see if they are offended.
This one wouldn't be. Dignity is deadly. - Paul Graham
Thank you for your opinions on the text box. If you are worried about offending high level VCs, etc, I guess we should really ask one of them to see if they are offended.
This one wouldn't be. Dignity is deadly. - Paul Graham
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Brenden
Member since: Feb 3, 2007 Rank: Viking King (767 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Point goes to blue and the match stands at 1 to 0
what will happen next is anyones guess!
what will happen next is anyones guess!
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
If you are worried about offending high level VCs, etc, I guess we should really ask one of them to see if they are offended.
I thought I did by posting this message in the CH forums. Maybe there aren't many high level VCs, etc. in your community.
I could be 100% wrong about this being offensive. VCs? Marketing experts? Angel investors? Lawyers? if you're here chime in please.
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Well oh wise one, please tell us about a social community where the VCs are congregating... Then you have a valid compare and contrast case. Right now you are simply arguing with your opinion, which until Blue's link, has been all anyone has been doing.
Let's remove the opinions approach and turn this into an objective conversation. More things get accomplished that way.
Let's remove the opinions approach and turn this into an objective conversation. More things get accomplished that way.
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Here's one: http://www.fundinguniverse.com/
Anyway... I don't expect the textbox will change. I know that I'm right when I say it doesn't appeal to everyone, but a stuffy professional site doesn't appeal to everyone either.
Thinking more about the whole issue of offending or pleasing members of a community makes me wonder if a single homogenous social network or community is possible. I think Cambrian House has adopted an appealing feel to a certain type of person at the risk of not being *right* for everyone.
Perhaps the real solution is to have many communites, each one with a different flavor, and some way to allow people to make connections between these communities.
Anyway... I don't expect the textbox will change. I know that I'm right when I say it doesn't appeal to everyone, but a stuffy professional site doesn't appeal to everyone either.
Thinking more about the whole issue of offending or pleasing members of a community makes me wonder if a single homogenous social network or community is possible. I think Cambrian House has adopted an appealing feel to a certain type of person at the risk of not being *right* for everyone.
Perhaps the real solution is to have many communites, each one with a different flavor, and some way to allow people to make connections between these communities.
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kevdog
Member since: Jul 2, 2006 Rank: Warrior (103 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
BAM! That's 2 points for Scotty right there! 2-1 Scotty. 
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Thanks for the link. I'll ignore kevdog's comment, it doesn't add to the conversation.
I totally agree that there are different audiences that social sites can cater to. Sites have to pick a side and market it for all its worth. The real people that will be successful in this whole thing are the folks that can transition and mingle amongst as many sides as possible (i.e. be popular with both the "rough" kids and the "rich" kids)
Oh yeah, let's be friends
I totally agree that there are different audiences that social sites can cater to. Sites have to pick a side and market it for all its worth. The real people that will be successful in this whole thing are the folks that can transition and mingle amongst as many sides as possible (i.e. be popular with both the "rough" kids and the "rich" kids)
Oh yeah, let's be friends
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Brenden
Member since: Feb 3, 2007 Rank: Viking King (767 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 17, 2007, 6:41 pm scotty said:
Perhaps the real solution is to have many communites, each one with a different flavor, and some way to allow people to make connections between these communities.
Before CH went dark, during the amazing Transparent times (oh how I miss those day's) CH was talking and moving that way! Creating a CH for everyone, so you selected what type of CH you want. Are you like me and are here for the creative fun of CH? (so I want the random and fun things) or are you the hard core business person (and only want the facts with no flashy things to get in your way).
I have no idea if CH dropped this idea or is working super hard on this, because they went into super secret mode... not talking to anyone about what they are developing, not really asking for our input (other then Gord's post (which was my idea)). This is funny because CH is all about being open, every idea on CH is here for pear review excepted for the CH platform it self? If you want CH to be about developing ideas and business then let us help you develop your ideas and business...
oh and Scotty YOU MOM IS TO FAT TO FIT IN A TEXT BOX... I would be really scared if she could... seriously.
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s_baar
Member since: Jul 19, 2006 Rank: Chief (280 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Offensive? What about the murderous vikings CH touts as it's golden calf. And let's not forget the mockery of justice that is the monarchical queen. Above all, the eight-ball is an offense to reason which our very reality is grounded in. STOP TRYING TO DESTROY REALITY CH.
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Blue
Member since: Nov 22, 2006 Rank: Princess (819 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Zach,
I think you are totally correct and headed exactly where I'd like to be. I think when I come to CH, I'd like to choose which look and feel I see, but still be in the same community. Thinking through a small issue like this and coming up with something that has a huge impact on the entire site, (not just the small problem that you started with) is something I'd like to see from more community members. I appreciate you putting the time into CH and your comments.
If anyone is wondering why KevDog's comments don't fit with our discussion, he used to work at CH and seems to be unhappy about something today. Everyone give KevDog a big hug!
I think you are totally correct and headed exactly where I'd like to be. I think when I come to CH, I'd like to choose which look and feel I see, but still be in the same community. Thinking through a small issue like this and coming up with something that has a huge impact on the entire site, (not just the small problem that you started with) is something I'd like to see from more community members. I appreciate you putting the time into CH and your comments.
If anyone is wondering why KevDog's comments don't fit with our discussion, he used to work at CH and seems to be unhappy about something today. Everyone give KevDog a big hug!
On August 17, 2007, 6:41 pm scotty said:
Here's one: http://www.fundinguniverse.com/
Anyway... I don't expect the textbox will change. I know that I'm right when I say it doesn't appeal to everyone, but a stuffy professional site doesn't appeal to everyone either.
Thinking more about the whole issue of offending or pleasing members of a community makes me wonder if a single homogenous social network or community is possible. I think Cambrian House has adopted an appealing feel to a certain type of person at the risk of not being *right* for everyone.
Perhaps the real solution is to have many communites, each one with a different flavor, and some way to allow people to make connections between these communities.
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Brenden
Member since: Feb 3, 2007 Rank: Viking King (767 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
And thats the game folk's, tied 2 to 2.
Its been a great game. See you next week when CC takes on Gord!
Its been a great game. See you next week when CC takes on Gord!
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techguy
Member since: Aug 3, 2006 Rank: God of Thunder (1231 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 18, 2007, 7:43 am Gods_Light said:
And thats the game folk's, tied 2 to 2.
Its been a great game. See you next week when CC takes on Gord!
You can't end a game in a tie. Is that Canadian rules football or something?
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CyberCerberus
Member since: Jul 6, 2006 Rank: God of Thunder (1181 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 18, 2007, 11:16 am techguy said:
On August 18, 2007, 7:43 am Gods_Light said:
And thats the game folk's, tied 2 to 2.
Its been a great game. See you next week when CC takes on Gord!
You can't end a game in a tie. Is that Canadian rules football or something?
A game can definitely end in a tie. Examples:
tic tac toe
cricket
soccer
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CyberCerberus
Member since: Jul 6, 2006 Rank: God of Thunder (1181 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 18, 2007, 12:13 am s_baar said:
Offensive? What about the murderous vikings CH touts as it's golden calf. And let's not forget the mockery of justice that is the monarchical queen. Above all, the eight-ball is an offense to reason which our very reality is grounded in. STOP TRYING TO DESTROY REALITY CH.
The difference being that calling people "fat" is widely accepted as rude, whereas none of those things are.
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Patrick_Jones
Member since: Aug 3, 2006 Rank: Noble (91 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Why are there so many people who are EX employees?
Does CH layoff on a dime? Or is working there frustrating?
Does CH layoff on a dime? Or is working there frustrating?
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Blue
Member since: Nov 22, 2006 Rank: Princess (819 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Working in a start up is hard. I think it just everyone trying to find the right fit. Both on the Cambrian House side and the employee side.
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cRitter
Member since: Aug 15, 2007 Rank: Warrior (105 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
i've been watching the vidcasts and enjoying my part in the cambrian experience.
one question i have on the subject of ex-employees: would it be fair to assume that some of the frustration is caused by a lack of attention to the start-ups which have come out of CH.com?
i'm stoked about the tournament of champions next week, and can't wait to see how things play out (even though i'll simply be a spectator of it all). but then, what?
my hopes are that those who are worried about fat people move the discussion to His Supreme Fatness on YouTube, and that CH.com focus on the tournament winner so we can see an example of the results of our crowdsourcing efforts.
one question i have on the subject of ex-employees: would it be fair to assume that some of the frustration is caused by a lack of attention to the start-ups which have come out of CH.com?
i'm stoked about the tournament of champions next week, and can't wait to see how things play out (even though i'll simply be a spectator of it all). but then, what?
my hopes are that those who are worried about fat people move the discussion to His Supreme Fatness on YouTube, and that CH.com focus on the tournament winner so we can see an example of the results of our crowdsourcing efforts.
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GordonMcDowell
Member since: Aug 15, 2006 Rank: Viking King (925 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
christopherritter, that's a valid question but I wouldn't want to answer for any ex-employee. Somewhere out there might be an ex-employee who was unsatisfied with our 2 stall bathroom. Or the taste of the coffee after someone used the dual-purpose machine to make tea. And I'd hate to suppose it was something more profound if that was the case. (Scotty might think I'm trying to be political about this, but I'd rather hope he finds it hilarious.)
CH is most definitely NOT trying to take the reigns for any ideas coming through the pipeline. It would distract us from building a more compelling crowdsourcing platform.
We want to help facilitate community members to collaborate on these project themselves, and help expose them to VCs.
For ideas which CH already had direct involvement in, we're trying to push them forward as best we can, or find good homes for them where they'll be completed.
CH is most definitely NOT trying to take the reigns for any ideas coming through the pipeline. It would distract us from building a more compelling crowdsourcing platform.
We want to help facilitate community members to collaborate on these project themselves, and help expose them to VCs.
For ideas which CH already had direct involvement in, we're trying to push them forward as best we can, or find good homes for them where they'll be completed.
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cRitter
Member since: Aug 15, 2007 Rank: Warrior (105 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
all i gotta say is keep up the good work!
and keep yr coffee out of my tea.
and keep yr coffee out of my tea.
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scotty
Member since: Mar 24, 2007 Rank: Merchant (25 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
As an ex-cher I guess I should add my two bits. I can't comment for any other ex-chers as everyone's situation is different.
What I will say is that I learned a hell of a lot co-founding and working at CH for a year and a half. It taught me that a startup is very hard and although the fit was right for me at first, it was not when I finally decided it was time to go. Culture is emergent. I also underestimated the strain of trying to be an involved husband and father of two while starting this company. I tried with everything I had, but in the end it proved to
be more than I could handle.
I wish all the current chers the best and appreciate all the hard work they're putting into this. It's not easy.
For now, I'm working as an architect / code ninja and I'm keeping my finger on the tech pulse. I plan to tackle the startup mountain again and stick a big flag at the top.
What I will say is that I learned a hell of a lot co-founding and working at CH for a year and a half. It taught me that a startup is very hard and although the fit was right for me at first, it was not when I finally decided it was time to go. Culture is emergent. I also underestimated the strain of trying to be an involved husband and father of two while starting this company. I tried with everything I had, but in the end it proved to
be more than I could handle.
I wish all the current chers the best and appreciate all the hard work they're putting into this. It's not easy.
For now, I'm working as an architect / code ninja and I'm keeping my finger on the tech pulse. I plan to tackle the startup mountain again and stick a big flag at the top.
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techguy
Member since: Aug 3, 2006 Rank: God of Thunder (1231 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
On August 29, 2007, 10:50 pm scotty said:
I also underestimated the strain of trying to be an involved husband and father of two while starting this company. I tried with everything I had, but in the end it proved to
be more than I could handle.
My fear #1. I hope to one day conquer the startup mountain too.
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GordonMcDowell
Member since: Aug 15, 2006 Rank: Viking King (925 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
We can attest to Scotty's coding skills. And don't let his placement of the word "ninja" fool you... he can tear a man's brain out of his skull, and show it to him before he dies!
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Kevin_Cox
Member since: Oct 14, 2006 Rank: Viking King (557 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
I think you are taking it to directly. Also, under FCC rules this would fly over the air. Unlike you mom that is permanently grounded.
Seriously, though why are you guys spending so much time on such a meaningless issue. Lets go solve world hunger or something. Go grab that bag of chips from you mom and feed some people. That way we can kill two birds with one stone.
What about: "Your mom goes to college"
Seriously, though why are you guys spending so much time on such a meaningless issue. Lets go solve world hunger or something. Go grab that bag of chips from you mom and feed some people. That way we can kill two birds with one stone.
Come up with something equally funny but not offensive to any fat people... whether they be fat due to genetic disorders or simple lack of exercise.
What about: "Your mom goes to college"
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ccozad
Member since: Jul 31, 2007 Rank: Viking King (918 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Go grab that bag of chips from you mom and feed some people. That way we can kill two birds with one stone.
ROTFL
Continuing with the "yo' mamma" theme you could have "yo' momma so old she couldn't look at the source code to read the rest of this quote"
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But all joking aside, I think rereading the posts with a bit more sleep, I think the point of the original post was to ask who is CH trying to appeal to.
Scotty was pointing out certain humor might be frowned upon by more conservative venture capitalists.
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Kevin_Cox
Member since: Oct 14, 2006 Rank: Viking King (557 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
And the rest of this site with hand drawn pictures for buttons is more professional. I don't think the theme of CH was ever suite and tie. There is a viking for the logo. Evey one knows the vikings had clear business ethics. Well aside from pillaging and plundering.
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cRitter
Member since: Aug 15, 2007 Rank: Warrior (105 Posts) |
[Quote Member] |
Just Remember: When you put down one mother, you're putting down mothers all over the world.
Isn't that right, Mr. T?
Isn't that right, Mr. T?
I was browsing the site and the search box on the bottom left (which doesn't look like a search box by the way) said "your mom is too fat to fit in this textbox".
It's childish and offensive. Not casual. Not creative. Not funny. Obviously this is an MJ feature.
I'm curious about what other people think.
Posted: August 16, 2007, 1:35 pm